RE: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark

Hi James,

currently Jaws treats forms like regions as landmarks, i.e. showing them in its landmarks dialog, too. They do this for reason, page structure is very clearly revealed by this. I consider this as a strong feature and do not like this changed.

The logic behind that is the pragmatic thinking that forms are landmark-like, too. And a "navigation" landmark can contain fairly complex content, too, not just a list of links.

Best Regards
Stefan

From: James Teh [mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org]
Sent: Donnerstag, 25. August 2016 00:33
To: Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>
Cc: Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>; Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu>; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>; IA2 List <Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>; ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>; Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark


Hi Rich,



I understand the reason for the use of the landmark role for role="form". However, I disagree with the HTML form element being mapped to the landmark role because semantics are lost. The fact that something is a form has more semantic value than just being a landmark. Still, if the spec already requires this, I guess we have little choice but to comply at this stage.

Jamie
On 25/08/2016 3:08 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:
Jamie,

The point is we want ALL the landmarks to be treated the same way for ATVs. So, first we determine that it is a landmark. Then we go to xml-roles to determine the type of landmark.

Otherwise, we need a special case for a form. That is what we are trying to avoid. For these reasons ATK/ATSPI created a landmark role first.

The HTML the form element now uses the ARIA mappings for the form role. See "Use WAI-ARIA mapping" under the form element. This is for all platforms.

https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html

We do understand that non-browser applications may still use the older Form role mapping as would older browser versions. It is for these reasons that our definition of deprecation is that it has not gone a way but rather it is going to this new preferred mapping.

Best,

Rich



Rich Schwerdtfeger



On Aug 23, 2016, at 7:35 PM, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org<mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>> wrote:

If you believe that role="form" has no semantic value other than being a landmark, then let's go ahead and map it to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK. On the other hand, the HTML form tag *does* have semantic value other than being a landmark, so I'd argue it should be IA2_ROLE_FORM.

On 24/08/2016 5:22 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:
We are not asking that IA2_ROLE_FORM be deprecated altogether. Even with ARIA we have some attributes that re deprecated but that is meant so that there will be a replacement solution. An example is the drag and drop aria properties. For ARIA browser conformance testing to exit Candidate Recommendation we will be testing for IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK on form roles.

Rich Schwerdtfeger



On Aug 18, 2016, at 9:56 PM, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org<mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>> wrote:

On 11/08/2016 2:58 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:

1) adding IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK and
Yes.


2) deprecating IA2_ROLE_FORM?
I'd argue that there is more semantic value in a "form" than just the fact that it is a landmark. This probably doesn't apply to ARIA (at least for now), since role="form" is defined as only a landmark. However, I'd argue it does apply to the HTML form tag. So, I'm fine t not use IA2_ROLE_FORM for ARIA role="form", but I'm dubious about deprecating it altogether, including for the HTML form tag.
Jamie

--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org<http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org<mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>




--

James Teh

Executive Director, NV Access Limited

Ph +61 7 3149 3306

www.nvaccess.org<http://www.nvaccess.org/>

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

Twitter: @NVAccess

SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org<mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>




--

James Teh

Executive Director, NV Access Limited

Ph +61 7 3149 3306

www.nvaccess.org<http://www.nvaccess.org>

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

Twitter: @NVAccess

SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org<mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>