Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton about children presentational - closes 15 June

It obviously works but it is unnecessary to do it that way. That is an implementation as you said.

IOW it is not essential that you have the menuitem be the parent of the submenu. That has not happened in Windows in the past that I have seen. I don’t know what happens in Win 10. 

That said we should not prevent an author from doing it that way if they wish. 

The net of all this is that we don’t have consensus on these presentational children which should have happened before going to CFC. I will raise this at the next ARIA call. Please be on the call. Thank you for the example. I want to lock things down and if our own authoring practices reference these then we are not communicating effectively on the calls. 

Rich

> On Jun 20, 2016, at 2:56 PM, James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com> wrote:
> 
> Rich,
> 
> See the OAA example here
> 
> http://oaa-accessibility.org/example/25/ <http://oaa-accessibility.org/example/25/>
> Menuitems have child menus in this example.
> 
> regards,
> 
> James
> 
> On 6/20/2016 12:48 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>> Bryan, 
>> 
>> Menus use aria-haspopup to indicate submenus on menuitems. They resulting popup menu will not be a child of the menuitem.  
>> 
>> Rich
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 20, 2016, at 2:36 PM, Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> “Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.
>>> 
>>> These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot add children are presentational to them as it will break every single tree and menu implementation.”
>>> 
>>>  
>>> This is true in that menuitems can have child menuitems, and treeitems can have child treeitems, however leaving this wide open is still a problem because menuitems cannot have child regions, sliders, checkboxes, buttons, headings, lists, and so on. The same is true with treeitem roles.
>>>  
>>> It cannot be left wide open like this. So there is still a need to make these children presentational with caveats
>>>  
>>> Bryan Garaventa
>>> Accessibility Fellow
>>> SSB BART Group, Inc.
>>>  <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
>>> 415.624.2709 (o)
>>>  <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>www.SSBBartGroup.com <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>
>>>  
>>> From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>] 
>>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 12:07 PM
>>> To:  <mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>public-aria-admin@w3.org <mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
>>> Subject: Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton about children presentational - closes 15 June
>>>  
>>> Yes.
>>> 
>>> Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.
>>> 
>>> These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot add children are presentational to them as it will break every single tree and menu implementation.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> James
>>> 
>>>  
>>> On 6/20/2016 12:01 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>>> I agree with James on the exception for spinbuttons for touch screen devices. 
>>>  
>>> This went out for CFC last week while I was out on vacation. Other than spinbutton are there any other objections to the rest of this proposal?
>>>  
>>> Rich
>>>  
>>> On Jun 18, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Birkir Gunnarsson < <mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com <mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> "I do not believe interactive widget vs composite widget is the heart
>>> of the issue. For me, the issue is how difficult is it for developers
>>> create structures
>>> with ARIA markup? For authors sake, I would not like to see a
>>> proliferation of roles because the structure content is presentational
>>> vs interactive content
>>> vs complex widget. Hopefully, an author could use a single
>>> recognizable logical role independent of the type of content in the
>>> structure.
>>> "
>>> For me ARIA is primarily for users, not authors.
>>> That being said, I am fine with allowing the plus and minus buttons as
>>> the only non-presentational elements allowed for role="spinbutton".
>>> I am not on board with allowing any other elements.
>>> 
>>> I am not on board allowing non-presentational elements on the option role.
>>> This is the same role used for <option> elements, and users, through
>>> years of interaction with select / option elemetns, have come to
>>> expect them to be presentational.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 6/18/16, James Craig < <mailto:jcraig@apple.com>jcraig@apple.com <mailto:jcraig@apple.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sorry I'm a couple days late responding to this.
>>> 
>>> Concerns with making "spinbutton" children presentational:
>>> I don't think spinbutton's children should be presentational until there is
>>> a solution for the ARIA's coverage gap wrt operability. As an example, there
>>> is no good way to make custom sliders accessible on touch screen devices
>>> because there is no way to trigger the increment/decrement events other than
>>> through de facto keypress events (this workaround is not sustainable or
>>> recommended for touch screen interfaces). If the WG makes spinbutton's
>>> children presentational, the same problem will apply. Author's are currently
>>> able to make spinbuttons accessible by using descendant stepper buttons that
>>> are individually operable. (Note: The native stepper buttons on macOS and in
>>> WebKit are implemented this way.)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org <mailto:cooper@w3.org>> wrote:
>>> This is a Call for Consensus (CfC) to the Accessible Rich Internet
>>> Applications (ARIA) Working Group regarding the following resolution of
>>> the ARIA Working group:
>>> 
>>> Add editorial note to option, treeitem, and spinbutton roles that their
>>> "children are presentational" status is provisional
>>> Background
>>> This was approved by the participants of the 9 June 2016 teleconference,
>>> and further context is available in the minutes:
>>> 
>>> https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02 <https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02>
>>> <https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02 <https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02>>Note this
>>> resolution does not close discussion on the issue of whether these roles
>>> ultimately should have the children presentational restriction, or whether
>>> further engineering is needed, and if so in what time frame. This edit
>>> supports wider review of the topic.
>>> Action
>>> This CfC is now open for objection, comment, as well as statements of
>>> support via email. Silence will be interpreted as support, though messages
>>> of support are certainly welcome.
>>> If you object to this proposal, or have comments concerning it, please
>>> respond by replying on list to this message no later than 23:59 (midnight)
>>> Boston Time, Wednesday, 15 June 2016. For objections only, please copy the
>>> main  <mailto:aria@w3.org <mailto:aria@w3.org>> <mailto:aria@w3.org>aria@w3.org <mailto:aria@w3.org> < <mailto:aria@w3.org>mailto:aria@w3.org <mailto:aria@w3.org>> list to allow
>>> technical discussion of the objection to happen there.
>>> Process
>>> This CfC is conducted per the ARIA WG decision policy:
>>> 
>>> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy>
>>> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy>>
>>> I am issuing this CfC as acting chair, but Rich will record the formal
>>> ratification if passed.
>>> Michael
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Birkir Gunnarsson, CPACC
>>> Senior Accessibility Subject Matter Expert | Deque Systems
>>> 2121 Cooperative Way, Suite 210
>>> Herndon, VA, 20171
>>> 
>>> Ph: (919) 607-27 53
>>> Twitter: @birkir_gun
>>>  
>>>  
>>> -- 
>>> Regards, James 
>>> <image001.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/>
>>> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>>> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video:  <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com> 
>>> Oracle Corporate Architecture
>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065 
>>> <image002.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Regards, James
> <oracle_sig_logo.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/>
> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video:  <sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com>james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com> 
> Oracle Corporate Architecture
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065 
> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>