Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton about children presentational - closes 15 June

Rich,

See the OAA example here

http://oaa-accessibility.org/example/25/

Menuitems have child menus in this example.

regards,

James


On 6/20/2016 12:48 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> Bryan,
>
> Menus use aria-haspopup to indicate submenus on menuitems. They 
> resulting popup menu will not be a child of the menuitem.
>
> Rich
>
>
>> On Jun 20, 2016, at 2:36 PM, Bryan Garaventa 
>> <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com 
>> <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>> wrote:
>>
>> “Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, 
>> menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.
>>
>> These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order 
>> to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot 
>> add children are presentational to them as it will break every single 
>> tree and menu implementation.”
>>
>> This is true in that menuitems can have child menuitems, and 
>> treeitems can have child treeitems, however leaving this wide open is 
>> still a problem because menuitems cannot have child regions, sliders, 
>> checkboxes, buttons, headings, lists, and so on. The same is true 
>> with treeitem roles.
>> It cannot be left wide open like this.So there is still a need to 
>> make these children presentational with caveats
>> Bryan Garaventa
>> Accessibility Fellow
>> SSB BART Group, Inc.
>> bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com 
>> <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
>> 415.624.2709 (o)
>> www.SSBBartGroup.com <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>
>> *From:*James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
>> *Sent:*Monday, June 20, 2016 12:07 PM
>> *To:*public-aria-admin@w3.org <mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton 
>> about children presentational - closes 15 June
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, 
>> menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.
>>
>> These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order 
>> to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot 
>> add children are presentational to them as it will break every single 
>> tree and menu implementation.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> James
>>
>> On 6/20/2016 12:01 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>>
>>     I agree with James on the exception for spinbuttons for touch
>>     screen devices.
>>     This went out for CFC last week while I was out on vacation.
>>     Other than spinbutton are there any other objections to the rest
>>     of this proposal?
>>     Rich
>>
>>         On Jun 18, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Birkir Gunnarsson
>>         <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com
>>         <mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>> wrote:
>>         "I do not believe interactive widget vs composite widget is
>>         the heart
>>         of the issue. For me, the issue is how difficult is it for
>>         developers
>>         create structures
>>         with ARIA markup? For authors sake, I would not like to see a
>>         proliferation of roles because the structure content is
>>         presentational
>>         vs interactive content
>>         vs complex widget. Hopefully, an author could use a single
>>         recognizable logical role independent of the type of content
>>         in the
>>         structure.
>>         "
>>         For me ARIA is primarily for users, not authors.
>>         That being said, I am fine with allowing the plus and minus
>>         buttons as
>>         the only non-presentational elements allowed for
>>         role="spinbutton".
>>         I am not on board with allowing any other elements.
>>
>>         I am not on board allowing non-presentational elements on the
>>         option role.
>>         This is the same role used for <option> elements, and users,
>>         through
>>         years of interaction with select / option elemetns, have come to
>>         expect them to be presentational.
>>
>>
>>
>>         On 6/18/16, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com
>>         <mailto:jcraig@apple.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             Sorry I'm a couple days late responding to this.
>>
>>             Concerns with making "spinbutton" children presentational:
>>             I don't think spinbutton's children should be
>>             presentational until there is
>>             a solution for the ARIA's coverage gap wrt operability.
>>             As an example, there
>>             is no good way to make custom sliders accessible on touch
>>             screen devices
>>             because there is no way to trigger the
>>             increment/decrement events other than
>>             through de facto keypress events (this workaround is not
>>             sustainable or
>>             recommended for touch screen interfaces). If the WG makes
>>             spinbutton's
>>             children presentational, the same problem will apply.
>>             Author's are currently
>>             able to make spinbuttons accessible by using descendant
>>             stepper buttons that
>>             are individually operable. (Note: The native stepper
>>             buttons on macOS and in
>>             WebKit are implemented this way.)
>>
>>
>>
>>                 On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Michael Cooper
>>                 <cooper@w3.org <mailto:cooper@w3.org>> wrote:
>>                 This is a Call for Consensus (CfC) to the Accessible
>>                 Rich Internet
>>                 Applications (ARIA) Working Group regarding the
>>                 following resolution of
>>                 the ARIA Working group:
>>
>>                 Add editorial note to option, treeitem, and
>>                 spinbutton roles that their
>>                 "children are presentational" status is provisional
>>                 Background
>>                 This was approved by the participants of the 9 June
>>                 2016 teleconference,
>>                 and further context is available in the minutes:
>>
>>                 https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02
>>                 <https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02>Note
>>                 this
>>                 resolution does not close discussion on the issue of
>>                 whether these roles
>>                 ultimately should have the children presentational
>>                 restriction, or whether
>>                 further engineering is needed, and if so in what time
>>                 frame. This edit
>>                 supports wider review of the topic.
>>                 Action
>>                 This CfC is now open for objection, comment, as well
>>                 as statements of
>>                 support via email. Silence will be interpreted as
>>                 support, though messages
>>                 of support are certainly welcome.
>>                 If you object to this proposal, or have comments
>>                 concerning it, please
>>                 respond by replying on list to this message no later
>>                 than 23:59 (midnight)
>>                 Boston Time, Wednesday, 15 June 2016. For objections
>>                 only, please copy the
>>                 main  <mailto:aria@w3.org>aria@w3.org
>>                 <mailto:aria@w3.org><mailto:aria@w3.org> list to allow
>>                 technical discussion of the objection to happen there.
>>                 Process
>>                 This CfC is conducted per the ARIA WG decision policy:
>>
>>                 https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy
>>                 <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy>
>>                 I am issuing this CfC as acting chair, but Rich will
>>                 record the formal
>>                 ratification if passed.
>>                 Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>         --
>>         Birkir Gunnarsson, CPACC
>>         Senior Accessibility Subject Matter Expert | Deque Systems
>>         2121 Cooperative Way, Suite 210
>>         Herndon, VA, 20171
>>
>>         Ph: (919) 607-27 53
>>         Twitter: @birkir_gun
>>
>> --
>> Regards, James
>>
>> <image001.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/>
>> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>> Phone:+1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781>| Mobile:+1 415 987 
>> 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>| Video:james.nurthen@oracle.com 
>> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
>> OracleCorporate Architecture
>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
>> <image002.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed 
>> to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>>
>

-- 
Regards, James

Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 
1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com 
<sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to 
developing practices and products that help protect the environment

Received on Monday, 20 June 2016 19:56:47 UTC