Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton about children presentational - closes 15 June

Bryan, 

Menus use aria-haspopup to indicate submenus on menuitems. They resulting popup menu will not be a child of the menuitem.  

Rich


> On Jun 20, 2016, at 2:36 PM, Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> “Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.
> 
> These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot add children are presentational to them as it will break every single tree and menu implementation.”
> 
>  
> This is true in that menuitems can have child menuitems, and treeitems can have child treeitems, however leaving this wide open is still a problem because menuitems cannot have child regions, sliders, checkboxes, buttons, headings, lists, and so on. The same is true with treeitem roles.
>  
> It cannot be left wide open like this. So there is still a need to make these children presentational with caveats
>  
> Bryan Garaventa
> Accessibility Fellow
> SSB BART Group, Inc.
> bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
> 415.624.2709 (o)
> www.SSBBartGroup.com <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>
>  
> From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>] 
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 12:07 PM
> To: public-aria-admin@w3.org <mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
> Subject: Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton about children presentational - closes 15 June
>  
> Yes.
> 
> Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.
> 
> These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot add children are presentational to them as it will break every single tree and menu implementation.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> James
> 
>  
> On 6/20/2016 12:01 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> I agree with James on the exception for spinbuttons for touch screen devices. 
>  
> This went out for CFC last week while I was out on vacation. Other than spinbutton are there any other objections to the rest of this proposal?
>  
> Rich
>  
> On Jun 18, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com <mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>> wrote:
>  
> "I do not believe interactive widget vs composite widget is the heart
> of the issue. For me, the issue is how difficult is it for developers
> create structures
> with ARIA markup? For authors sake, I would not like to see a
> proliferation of roles because the structure content is presentational
> vs interactive content
> vs complex widget. Hopefully, an author could use a single
> recognizable logical role independent of the type of content in the
> structure.
> "
> For me ARIA is primarily for users, not authors.
> That being said, I am fine with allowing the plus and minus buttons as
> the only non-presentational elements allowed for role="spinbutton".
> I am not on board with allowing any other elements.
> 
> I am not on board allowing non-presentational elements on the option role.
> This is the same role used for <option> elements, and users, through
> years of interaction with select / option elemetns, have come to
> expect them to be presentational.
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/18/16, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com <mailto:jcraig@apple.com>> wrote:
> 
> Sorry I'm a couple days late responding to this.
> 
> Concerns with making "spinbutton" children presentational:
> I don't think spinbutton's children should be presentational until there is
> a solution for the ARIA's coverage gap wrt operability. As an example, there
> is no good way to make custom sliders accessible on touch screen devices
> because there is no way to trigger the increment/decrement events other than
> through de facto keypress events (this workaround is not sustainable or
> recommended for touch screen interfaces). If the WG makes spinbutton's
> children presentational, the same problem will apply. Author's are currently
> able to make spinbuttons accessible by using descendant stepper buttons that
> are individually operable. (Note: The native stepper buttons on macOS and in
> WebKit are implemented this way.)
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org <mailto:cooper@w3.org>> wrote:
> This is a Call for Consensus (CfC) to the Accessible Rich Internet
> Applications (ARIA) Working Group regarding the following resolution of
> the ARIA Working group:
> 
> Add editorial note to option, treeitem, and spinbutton roles that their
> "children are presentational" status is provisional
> Background
> This was approved by the participants of the 9 June 2016 teleconference,
> and further context is available in the minutes:
> 
> https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02 <https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02>
> <https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02 <https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02>>Note this
> resolution does not close discussion on the issue of whether these roles
> ultimately should have the children presentational restriction, or whether
> further engineering is needed, and if so in what time frame. This edit
> supports wider review of the topic.
> Action
> This CfC is now open for objection, comment, as well as statements of
> support via email. Silence will be interpreted as support, though messages
> of support are certainly welcome.
> If you object to this proposal, or have comments concerning it, please
> respond by replying on list to this message no later than 23:59 (midnight)
> Boston Time, Wednesday, 15 June 2016. For objections only, please copy the
> main  <mailto:aria@w3.org <mailto:aria@w3.org>>aria@w3.org <mailto:aria@w3.org> <mailto:aria@w3.org <mailto:aria@w3.org>> list to allow
> technical discussion of the objection to happen there.
> Process
> This CfC is conducted per the ARIA WG decision policy:
> 
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy>
> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy>>
> I am issuing this CfC as acting chair, but Rich will record the formal
> ratification if passed.
> Michael
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Birkir Gunnarsson, CPACC
> Senior Accessibility Subject Matter Expert | Deque Systems
> 2121 Cooperative Way, Suite 210
> Herndon, VA, 20171
> 
> Ph: (919) 607-27 53
> Twitter: @birkir_gun
>  
>  
> -- 
> Regards, James 
> <image001.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/>
> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com> 
> Oracle Corporate Architecture
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