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Re: accessible banking:

From: Access Systems <accessys@smart.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:17:30 -0500 (EST)
To: Kelly Pierce <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
cc: Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com, david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com, John.Carpenter@pdms.com, w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0502012213420.31331@smart.net>

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Kelly Pierce wrote:

> yes, the court ordered the transit system to design an accessible website.
> it didn't order the transit system to give away free screen readers, as you
> suggested.

no I never suggested they give away free screen readers, what I said was
if they require a specific screen reader or software they have to provide
it free.  and accessible website would allow accessible systems to use it.

IE cannot not be considered ADA compliant.  they require the purchase of
specific software.  proprietary software.  not permitted unless they give
you the software.  what is the problem with the W3C/WAI standards.  there
needs to be a way to use the system with a text based screen reader.

Bob

>
> Kelly
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
> To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
> Cc: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>; <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
>
>
> > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Kelly Pierce wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder how many jobs are calibrated so the end user runs "Linux
> >> operating
> >> system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak text to audio adaptive software"?  I
> >> suspect very few.
> >
> > besides myself I,ve only met one other person but I was using it more as
> > an example of  an open source solution to high priced proprietary
> > software.
> >
> >> The ADA prohibition against charging for an accommodation does not
> >> pertain
> >> to personal devices, such as eyeglasses or wheelchairs.  if the screen
> >> reader is on a public terminal, then the entity with the terminal is
> >> responsible for the cost.  If the screen reader is on a user's own
> >> machine,
> >> then it would likely be considered a personal device and the end user is
> >> responsible for the cost, just like a wheelchair user is responsible for
> >> the
> >> cost of the wheelchair in order to use a wheelchair accessible building.
> >
> > not so,  Transit sytems have lost lawsuits on having inaccessible
> > websites.    and there is a requirement for the text alternative, we
> > discuss ad nausiam on this groupp
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >>
> >> Kelly
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
> >> To: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>
> >> Cc: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
> >> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>;
> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:50 AM
> >> Subject: RE: accessible banking:
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> What I am thinking about is how the poverty issue impacts the security
> >> >> issue.
> >> >> I describe it as a poverty issue since the statement "The law should
> >> >> read
> >> >> that anyone should be able to access and fully use any tehnology
> >> >> appropriate
> >> >> for a task and which fits their needs." includes people without
> >> >> disabilities
> >> >> and I believe is an attempt to include less economically fortunate
> >> >> members
> >> >> of the communities addressed by the W3C WAI Guidelines.  Poverty is
> >> >> not
> >> >> an
> >> >> accessibility issue unique to these communities as it impacts many
> >> >> outside
> >> >> of these communities.
> >> >
> >> > but people with disabilities are more likely to be below the poverty
> >> > level
> >> >
> >> >> The problem arises when an Internet user fortunate enough to have an
> >> >> early
> >> >> 1990's era system attempts to visit a secure site.  This system is
> >> >> probably
> >> >
> >> > or those persons not using the Windows operating system, such as Mac,s,
> >> > Linux and a whole range of open source products
> >> >
> >> >> not capable of supporting current encryption standards.  Does the
> >> >> secure
> >> >> site
> >> >> owner have an obligation to provide this user access at the risk of
> >> >> compromising security?
> >> >
> >> > however demanding that a user purchase an expensive piece of specific
> >> > software is not a security issue.
> >> >
> >> >> Or does the "...appropriate for a task..." part of
> >> >> this statement mean this era browser would be exempt from the site
> >> >> owners
> >> >> obligation?  And if we make this exception, is it not also fair to say
> >> >> users of "free" browsers capable of supporting current encryption
> >> >> standards
> >> >> and 'modeling' IE browser behavior have access to any site optimized
> >> >> for
> >> >> accessibility with an IE browser?
> >> >>
> >> >> Given that non-Internet Explorer browsers are now able to 'model' the
> >> >> behavior
> >> >> of an Internet Explorer browser, a distinction between the product
> >> >> Internet Explorer and the behavior of this product needs to be made.
> >> >> To
> >> >> say
> >> >> a site is only accessible with an IE browser can mean two different
> >> >> things.
> >> >> Either the product Internet Explorer or the behavior of an IE browser
> >> >> is
> >> >> needed.  "Free" browsers able to 'model' Internet Explorer behavior
> >> >> provide
> >> >> the means for less economically fortunate users to access sites
> >> >> optimized
> >> >> for the Internet Explorer browser without incurring any expense or
> >> >> exposure
> >> >> to any of the Internet Explorer security issues often cited.
> >> >
> >> > however how does this allow people using specific adaptive software use
> >> > the site,  for example a cheap (poor) visually impaired user. accessing
> >> > the site via Linux operating system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak text
> >> > to
> >> > audio adaptive software.
> >> >
> >> > 508 (as does title II and III of ADA) prohibits requiring individuals
> >> > to
> >> > purchase anything other users do  not have to purchase.. if requiring
> >> > IE,
> >> > does that mean that the secure site must provide free a copy of JAWS
> >> > ???
> >> >
> >> > Bob
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Kurt Mattes
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: david poehlman [mailto:david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com]
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:37 AM
> >> >> To: Mattes, Kurt (Bank One); kpierce2000@earthlink.net;
> >> >> John.Carpenter@pdms.com; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I guess so but could you ellaborate on your question.
> >> >>
> >> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>
> >> >> To: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
> >> >> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>;
> >> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:22 AM
> >> >> Subject: RE: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Does "The law should read that anyone should be able to access
> >> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits
> >> >> their
> >> >> needs." include any browser capable of connecting to the Internet?
> >> >>
> >> >> Kurt Mattes
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
> >> >> Behalf Of david poehlman
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:10 AM
> >> >> To: Kelly Pierce; John Carpenter; wai-ig list
> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Kelly and all, the laws are flawed in this fashion.  they assume lack
> >> >> of
> >> >> people function when the issue is lack of technology function.  I just
> >> >> read
> >> >> a piece on this in fact from the ncd called "righting the ada" which
> >> >> sadly
> >> >> carries this mal assumption forward.  90 ercent or more of the issues
> >> >> we
> >> >> face are artificial and the sooner they are dealt with, the better.
> >> >> It
> >> >> is
> >> >> as you point out 2005 and was not right in any age to task technology
> >> >> with
> >> >> setting the tone for people's lives but rather technology should be
> >> >> tasked
> >> >> to serve us.
> >> >>
> >> >> I did state in my message that this has nothing to do with law, but
> >> >> perhaps
> >> >> I was in error.  The law should read that anyone should be able to
> >> >> access
> >> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits
> >> >> their
> >> >> needs.  There are many places in the country and in the world where is
> >> >> is
> >> >> a
> >> >> mis fit and always will be.
> >> >>
> >> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
> >> >> To: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; "John
> >> >> Carpenter" <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list"
> >> >> <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:03 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> >> >> To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>; "John Carpenter"
> >> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:42 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Part of accessibility is choice.  I should be able to access any web
> >> >> > site
> >> >> > with any combination of user agent and technology accessibly and it
> >> >> > be
> >> >> > accessible.  Is this a tall order?  Yes, is it necessary, yes.
> >> >>
> >> >> **Not under the Americans with Disabilities Act.  As long as the means
> >> >> of
> >> >> communication made available to you is effective, I.e. allowing you to
> >> >> complete a certain task, then the bank has fulfilled its access
> >> >> obligations.
> >> >> Under the ADA, courts view access by functional performance, not by
> >> >> process.
> >> >> they also don't consider optimal or preferential means but the means
> >> >> that
> >> >> is
> >> >> sufficient to complete the specified task.  You may choose not to use
> >> >> Internet Explorer, but in 2005 I have not seen an argument saying that
> >> >> it
> >> >> is
> >> >> unreasonable or insufficient to require people with disabilities only
> >> >> to
> >> >> use
> >> >> Internet Explorer to access online banking services.  It seems like
> >> >> you
> >> >> want
> >> >> access beyond what is required beyond that of the ADA.
> >> >>
> >> >> Kelly
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> **********************************************************************
> >> >> This transmission may contain information that is privileged,
> >> >> confidential
> >> >> and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the
> >> >> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> >> >> copying,
> >> >> distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including
> >> >> any
> >> >> reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this
> >> >> transmission
> >> >> in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the
> >> >> material
> >> >> in
> >> >> its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you
> >> >> **********************************************************************
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
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> >>
> >> > -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
> >> >  -
> >> >   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
> >> >    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
> >> >    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems,
> >> > engineers
> >> >    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
> >> > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
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> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
> > -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
> >   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
> >    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
> >    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, engineers
> >    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
> > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
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> > privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
> >
> >
>
>
>

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
-   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, engineers
    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
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Received on Wednesday, 2 February 2005 03:17:28 GMT

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