- From: Kelly Pierce <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:09:52 -0600
- To: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
- Cc: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>, <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>, <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
yes, the court ordered the transit system to design an accessible website. it didn't order the transit system to give away free screen readers, as you suggested. Kelly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net> To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net> Cc: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>; <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:04 PM Subject: Re: accessible banking: > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Kelly Pierce wrote: > >> I wonder how many jobs are calibrated so the end user runs "Linux >> operating >> system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak text to audio adaptive software"? I >> suspect very few. > > besides myself I,ve only met one other person but I was using it more as > an example of an open source solution to high priced proprietary > software. > >> The ADA prohibition against charging for an accommodation does not >> pertain >> to personal devices, such as eyeglasses or wheelchairs. if the screen >> reader is on a public terminal, then the entity with the terminal is >> responsible for the cost. If the screen reader is on a user's own >> machine, >> then it would likely be considered a personal device and the end user is >> responsible for the cost, just like a wheelchair user is responsible for >> the >> cost of the wheelchair in order to use a wheelchair accessible building. > > not so, Transit sytems have lost lawsuits on having inaccessible > websites. and there is a requirement for the text alternative, we > discuss ad nausiam on this groupp > > Bob > >> >> Kelly >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net> >> To: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com> >> Cc: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; >> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>; >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:50 AM >> Subject: RE: accessible banking: >> >> >> > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com wrote: >> > >> >> What I am thinking about is how the poverty issue impacts the security >> >> issue. >> >> I describe it as a poverty issue since the statement "The law should >> >> read >> >> that anyone should be able to access and fully use any tehnology >> >> appropriate >> >> for a task and which fits their needs." includes people without >> >> disabilities >> >> and I believe is an attempt to include less economically fortunate >> >> members >> >> of the communities addressed by the W3C WAI Guidelines. Poverty is >> >> not >> >> an >> >> accessibility issue unique to these communities as it impacts many >> >> outside >> >> of these communities. >> > >> > but people with disabilities are more likely to be below the poverty >> > level >> > >> >> The problem arises when an Internet user fortunate enough to have an >> >> early >> >> 1990's era system attempts to visit a secure site. This system is >> >> probably >> > >> > or those persons not using the Windows operating system, such as Mac,s, >> > Linux and a whole range of open source products >> > >> >> not capable of supporting current encryption standards. Does the >> >> secure >> >> site >> >> owner have an obligation to provide this user access at the risk of >> >> compromising security? >> > >> > however demanding that a user purchase an expensive piece of specific >> > software is not a security issue. >> > >> >> Or does the "...appropriate for a task..." part of >> >> this statement mean this era browser would be exempt from the site >> >> owners >> >> obligation? And if we make this exception, is it not also fair to say >> >> users of "free" browsers capable of supporting current encryption >> >> standards >> >> and 'modeling' IE browser behavior have access to any site optimized >> >> for >> >> accessibility with an IE browser? >> >> >> >> Given that non-Internet Explorer browsers are now able to 'model' the >> >> behavior >> >> of an Internet Explorer browser, a distinction between the product >> >> Internet Explorer and the behavior of this product needs to be made. >> >> To >> >> say >> >> a site is only accessible with an IE browser can mean two different >> >> things. >> >> Either the product Internet Explorer or the behavior of an IE browser >> >> is >> >> needed. "Free" browsers able to 'model' Internet Explorer behavior >> >> provide >> >> the means for less economically fortunate users to access sites >> >> optimized >> >> for the Internet Explorer browser without incurring any expense or >> >> exposure >> >> to any of the Internet Explorer security issues often cited. >> > >> > however how does this allow people using specific adaptive software use >> > the site, for example a cheap (poor) visually impaired user. accessing >> > the site via Linux operating system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak text >> > to >> > audio adaptive software. >> > >> > 508 (as does title II and III of ADA) prohibits requiring individuals >> > to >> > purchase anything other users do not have to purchase.. if requiring >> > IE, >> > does that mean that the secure site must provide free a copy of JAWS >> > ??? >> > >> > Bob >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Kurt Mattes >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: david poehlman [mailto:david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com] >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:37 AM >> >> To: Mattes, Kurt (Bank One); kpierce2000@earthlink.net; >> >> John.Carpenter@pdms.com; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking: >> >> >> >> >> >> I guess so but could you ellaborate on your question. >> >> >> >> Johnnie Apple Seed >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com> >> >> To: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; >> >> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>; >> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:22 AM >> >> Subject: RE: accessible banking: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Does "The law should read that anyone should be able to access >> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits >> >> their >> >> needs." include any browser capable of connecting to the Internet? >> >> >> >> Kurt Mattes >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On >> >> Behalf Of david poehlman >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:10 AM >> >> To: Kelly Pierce; John Carpenter; wai-ig list >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Kelly and all, the laws are flawed in this fashion. they assume lack >> >> of >> >> people function when the issue is lack of technology function. I just >> >> read >> >> a piece on this in fact from the ncd called "righting the ada" which >> >> sadly >> >> carries this mal assumption forward. 90 ercent or more of the issues >> >> we >> >> face are artificial and the sooner they are dealt with, the better. >> >> It >> >> is >> >> as you point out 2005 and was not right in any age to task technology >> >> with >> >> setting the tone for people's lives but rather technology should be >> >> tasked >> >> to serve us. >> >> >> >> I did state in my message that this has nothing to do with law, but >> >> perhaps >> >> I was in error. The law should read that anyone should be able to >> >> access >> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits >> >> their >> >> needs. There are many places in the country and in the world where is >> >> is >> >> a >> >> mis fit and always will be. >> >> >> >> Johnnie Apple Seed >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net> >> >> To: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; "John >> >> Carpenter" <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list" >> >> <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:03 AM >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com> >> >> To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>; "John Carpenter" >> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:42 AM >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking: >> >> >> >> >> >> > Part of accessibility is choice. I should be able to access any web >> >> > site >> >> > with any combination of user agent and technology accessibly and it >> >> > be >> >> > accessible. Is this a tall order? Yes, is it necessary, yes. >> >> >> >> **Not under the Americans with Disabilities Act. As long as the means >> >> of >> >> communication made available to you is effective, I.e. allowing you to >> >> complete a certain task, then the bank has fulfilled its access >> >> obligations. >> >> Under the ADA, courts view access by functional performance, not by >> >> process. >> >> they also don't consider optimal or preferential means but the means >> >> that >> >> is >> >> sufficient to complete the specified task. You may choose not to use >> >> Internet Explorer, but in 2005 I have not seen an argument saying that >> >> it >> >> is >> >> unreasonable or insufficient to require people with disabilities only >> >> to >> >> use >> >> Internet Explorer to access online banking services. It seems like >> >> you >> >> want >> >> access beyond what is required beyond that of the ADA. >> >> >> >> Kelly >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ********************************************************************** >> >> This transmission may contain information that is privileged, >> >> confidential >> >> and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the >> >> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >> >> copying, >> >> distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including >> >> any >> >> reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this >> >> transmission >> >> in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the >> >> material >> >> in >> >> its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you >> >> ********************************************************************** >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see >> > http://expita.com/nomime.html >> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> > >> > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary >> > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin >> >> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> > - >> > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob >> > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys@smartnospam.net >> > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, >> > engineers >> > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right >> > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# >> > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be >> > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named >> > >> > >> >> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys@smartnospam.net > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > >
Received on Wednesday, 2 February 2005 03:09:59 UTC