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Re: accessible banking:

From: Kelly Pierce <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:50:33 -0600
Message-ID: <00bc01c508e2$bad15800$0b0110ac@Kelly>
To: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
Cc: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>, <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>, <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>

oh I see.  Anything that isn't running a free Linux distro is now supposedly 
inaccessible.  I understand and appreciate your open source politics but I 
think the notion of accessibility is being used to advance the open source 
ideology.  We have already discussed WCAG and ADA compliance and neither of 
them apply here.

Kelly


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
Cc: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>; <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; 
<John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: accessible banking:


> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Kelly Pierce wrote:
>
>> yes, the court ordered the transit system to design an accessible 
>> website.
>> it didn't order the transit system to give away free screen readers, as 
>> you
>> suggested.
>
> no I never suggested they give away free screen readers, what I said was
> if they require a specific screen reader or software they have to provide
> it free.  and accessible website would allow accessible systems to use it.
>
> IE cannot not be considered ADA compliant.  they require the purchase of
> specific software.  proprietary software.  not permitted unless they give
> you the software.  what is the problem with the W3C/WAI standards.  there
> needs to be a way to use the system with a text based screen reader.
>
> Bob
>
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
>> To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
>> Cc: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>; <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
>> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
>>
>>
>> > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Kelly Pierce wrote:
>> >
>> >> I wonder how many jobs are calibrated so the end user runs "Linux
>> >> operating
>> >> system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak text to audio adaptive software"? 
>> >> I
>> >> suspect very few.
>> >
>> > besides myself I,ve only met one other person but I was using it more 
>> > as
>> > an example of  an open source solution to high priced proprietary
>> > software.
>> >
>> >> The ADA prohibition against charging for an accommodation does not
>> >> pertain
>> >> to personal devices, such as eyeglasses or wheelchairs.  if the screen
>> >> reader is on a public terminal, then the entity with the terminal is
>> >> responsible for the cost.  If the screen reader is on a user's own
>> >> machine,
>> >> then it would likely be considered a personal device and the end user 
>> >> is
>> >> responsible for the cost, just like a wheelchair user is responsible 
>> >> for
>> >> the
>> >> cost of the wheelchair in order to use a wheelchair accessible 
>> >> building.
>> >
>> > not so,  Transit sytems have lost lawsuits on having inaccessible
>> > websites.    and there is a requirement for the text alternative, we
>> > discuss ad nausiam on this groupp
>> >
>> > Bob
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Kelly
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
>> >> To: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>
>> >> Cc: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
>> >> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>;
>> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:50 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: accessible banking:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> What I am thinking about is how the poverty issue impacts the 
>> >> >> security
>> >> >> issue.
>> >> >> I describe it as a poverty issue since the statement "The law 
>> >> >> should
>> >> >> read
>> >> >> that anyone should be able to access and fully use any tehnology
>> >> >> appropriate
>> >> >> for a task and which fits their needs." includes people without
>> >> >> disabilities
>> >> >> and I believe is an attempt to include less economically fortunate
>> >> >> members
>> >> >> of the communities addressed by the W3C WAI Guidelines.  Poverty is
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> an
>> >> >> accessibility issue unique to these communities as it impacts many
>> >> >> outside
>> >> >> of these communities.
>> >> >
>> >> > but people with disabilities are more likely to be below the poverty
>> >> > level
>> >> >
>> >> >> The problem arises when an Internet user fortunate enough to have 
>> >> >> an
>> >> >> early
>> >> >> 1990's era system attempts to visit a secure site.  This system is
>> >> >> probably
>> >> >
>> >> > or those persons not using the Windows operating system, such as 
>> >> > Mac,s,
>> >> > Linux and a whole range of open source products
>> >> >
>> >> >> not capable of supporting current encryption standards.  Does the
>> >> >> secure
>> >> >> site
>> >> >> owner have an obligation to provide this user access at the risk of
>> >> >> compromising security?
>> >> >
>> >> > however demanding that a user purchase an expensive piece of 
>> >> > specific
>> >> > software is not a security issue.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Or does the "...appropriate for a task..." part of
>> >> >> this statement mean this era browser would be exempt from the site
>> >> >> owners
>> >> >> obligation?  And if we make this exception, is it not also fair to 
>> >> >> say
>> >> >> users of "free" browsers capable of supporting current encryption
>> >> >> standards
>> >> >> and 'modeling' IE browser behavior have access to any site 
>> >> >> optimized
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> accessibility with an IE browser?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Given that non-Internet Explorer browsers are now able to 'model' 
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> behavior
>> >> >> of an Internet Explorer browser, a distinction between the product
>> >> >> Internet Explorer and the behavior of this product needs to be 
>> >> >> made.
>> >> >> To
>> >> >> say
>> >> >> a site is only accessible with an IE browser can mean two different
>> >> >> things.
>> >> >> Either the product Internet Explorer or the behavior of an IE 
>> >> >> browser
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> needed.  "Free" browsers able to 'model' Internet Explorer behavior
>> >> >> provide
>> >> >> the means for less economically fortunate users to access sites
>> >> >> optimized
>> >> >> for the Internet Explorer browser without incurring any expense or
>> >> >> exposure
>> >> >> to any of the Internet Explorer security issues often cited.
>> >> >
>> >> > however how does this allow people using specific adaptive software 
>> >> > use
>> >> > the site,  for example a cheap (poor) visually impaired user. 
>> >> > accessing
>> >> > the site via Linux operating system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak 
>> >> > text
>> >> > to
>> >> > audio adaptive software.
>> >> >
>> >> > 508 (as does title II and III of ADA) prohibits requiring 
>> >> > individuals
>> >> > to
>> >> > purchase anything other users do  not have to purchase.. if 
>> >> > requiring
>> >> > IE,
>> >> > does that mean that the secure site must provide free a copy of JAWS
>> >> > ???
>> >> >
>> >> > Bob
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Kurt Mattes
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: david poehlman 
>> >> >> [mailto:david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com]
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:37 AM
>> >> >> To: Mattes, Kurt (Bank One); kpierce2000@earthlink.net;
>> >> >> John.Carpenter@pdms.com; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I guess so but could you ellaborate on your question.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>
>> >> >> To: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
>> >> >> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>;
>> >> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:22 AM
>> >> >> Subject: RE: accessible banking:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Does "The law should read that anyone should be able to access
>> >> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> needs." include any browser capable of connecting to the Internet?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Kurt Mattes
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org 
>> >> >> [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
>> >> >> Behalf Of david poehlman
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:10 AM
>> >> >> To: Kelly Pierce; John Carpenter; wai-ig list
>> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Kelly and all, the laws are flawed in this fashion.  they assume 
>> >> >> lack
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> people function when the issue is lack of technology function.  I 
>> >> >> just
>> >> >> read
>> >> >> a piece on this in fact from the ncd called "righting the ada" 
>> >> >> which
>> >> >> sadly
>> >> >> carries this mal assumption forward.  90 ercent or more of the 
>> >> >> issues
>> >> >> we
>> >> >> face are artificial and the sooner they are dealt with, the better.
>> >> >> It
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> as you point out 2005 and was not right in any age to task 
>> >> >> technology
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> setting the tone for people's lives but rather technology should be
>> >> >> tasked
>> >> >> to serve us.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I did state in my message that this has nothing to do with law, but
>> >> >> perhaps
>> >> >> I was in error.  The law should read that anyone should be able to
>> >> >> access
>> >> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> needs.  There are many places in the country and in the world where 
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> mis fit and always will be.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
>> >> >> To: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; 
>> >> >> "John
>> >> >> Carpenter" <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list"
>> >> >> <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:03 AM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
>> >> >> To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>; "John Carpenter"
>> >> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:42 AM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Part of accessibility is choice.  I should be able to access any 
>> >> >> > web
>> >> >> > site
>> >> >> > with any combination of user agent and technology accessibly and 
>> >> >> > it
>> >> >> > be
>> >> >> > accessible.  Is this a tall order?  Yes, is it necessary, yes.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> **Not under the Americans with Disabilities Act.  As long as the 
>> >> >> means
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> communication made available to you is effective, I.e. allowing you 
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> complete a certain task, then the bank has fulfilled its access
>> >> >> obligations.
>> >> >> Under the ADA, courts view access by functional performance, not by
>> >> >> process.
>> >> >> they also don't consider optimal or preferential means but the 
>> >> >> means
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> sufficient to complete the specified task.  You may choose not to 
>> >> >> use
>> >> >> Internet Explorer, but in 2005 I have not seen an argument saying 
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> unreasonable or insufficient to require people with disabilities 
>> >> >> only
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> use
>> >> >> Internet Explorer to access online banking services.  It seems like
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> want
>> >> >> access beyond what is required beyond that of the ADA.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Kelly
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> **********************************************************************
>> >> >> This transmission may contain information that is privileged,
>> >> >> confidential
>> >> >> and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not 
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
>> >> >> copying,
>> >> >> distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including
>> >> >> any
>> >> >> reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this
>> >> >> transmission
>> >> >> in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the
>> >> >> material
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you
>> >> >> **********************************************************************
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
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>> >> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> >
>> >> > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little 
>> >> > temporary
>> >> > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >> > -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -    
>> >> > -
>> >> >  -
>> >> >   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
>> >> >    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail 
>> >> > accessys@smartnospam.net
>> >> >    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems,
>> >> > engineers
>> >> >    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil 
>> >> > right
>> >> > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
>> >> > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
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>> >> > named
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see 
>> > http://expita.com/nomime.html
>> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >
>> > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
>> > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
>> 
>> > -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   
>> >  -
>> >   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
>> >    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
>> >    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, 
>> > engineers
>> >    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
>> > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
>> > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
>> > privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
> -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
>   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
>    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
>    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, engineers
>    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
> *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
> THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
> privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
>
> 
Received on Wednesday, 2 February 2005 04:50:44 GMT

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