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Re: accessible banking:

From: Access Systems <accessys@smart.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:13:31 -0500 (EST)
To: Kelly Pierce <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
cc: Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com, david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com, John.Carpenter@pdms.com, w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0502012212560.31331@smart.net>

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Kelly Pierce wrote:

>
> yes, the court ordered the transit system to design an accessible website.
> it didn't order the transit system to give away free screen readers, as you
> suggested.

no but they had to make the site usable by text screen readers.

Bob

>
> Kelly
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
> To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
> Cc: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>; <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
>
>
> > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Kelly Pierce wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder how many jobs are calibrated so the end user runs "Linux
> >> operating
> >> system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak text to audio adaptive software"?  I
> >> suspect very few.
> >
> > besides myself I,ve only met one other person but I was using it more as
> > an example of  an open source solution to high priced proprietary
> > software.
> >
> >> The ADA prohibition against charging for an accommodation does not
> >> pertain
> >> to personal devices, such as eyeglasses or wheelchairs.  if the screen
> >> reader is on a public terminal, then the entity with the terminal is
> >> responsible for the cost.  If the screen reader is on a user's own
> >> machine,
> >> then it would likely be considered a personal device and the end user is
> >> responsible for the cost, just like a wheelchair user is responsible for
> >> the
> >> cost of the wheelchair in order to use a wheelchair accessible building.
> >
> > not so,  Transit sytems have lost lawsuits on having inaccessible
> > websites.    and there is a requirement for the text alternative, we
> > discuss ad nausiam on this groupp
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >>
> >> Kelly
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
> >> To: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>
> >> Cc: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
> >> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>;
> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:50 AM
> >> Subject: RE: accessible banking:
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> What I am thinking about is how the poverty issue impacts the security
> >> >> issue.
> >> >> I describe it as a poverty issue since the statement "The law should
> >> >> read
> >> >> that anyone should be able to access and fully use any tehnology
> >> >> appropriate
> >> >> for a task and which fits their needs." includes people without
> >> >> disabilities
> >> >> and I believe is an attempt to include less economically fortunate
> >> >> members
> >> >> of the communities addressed by the W3C WAI Guidelines.  Poverty is
> >> >> not
> >> >> an
> >> >> accessibility issue unique to these communities as it impacts many
> >> >> outside
> >> >> of these communities.
> >> >
> >> > but people with disabilities are more likely to be below the poverty
> >> > level
> >> >
> >> >> The problem arises when an Internet user fortunate enough to have an
> >> >> early
> >> >> 1990's era system attempts to visit a secure site.  This system is
> >> >> probably
> >> >
> >> > or those persons not using the Windows operating system, such as Mac,s,
> >> > Linux and a whole range of open source products
> >> >
> >> >> not capable of supporting current encryption standards.  Does the
> >> >> secure
> >> >> site
> >> >> owner have an obligation to provide this user access at the risk of
> >> >> compromising security?
> >> >
> >> > however demanding that a user purchase an expensive piece of specific
> >> > software is not a security issue.
> >> >
> >> >> Or does the "...appropriate for a task..." part of
> >> >> this statement mean this era browser would be exempt from the site
> >> >> owners
> >> >> obligation?  And if we make this exception, is it not also fair to say
> >> >> users of "free" browsers capable of supporting current encryption
> >> >> standards
> >> >> and 'modeling' IE browser behavior have access to any site optimized
> >> >> for
> >> >> accessibility with an IE browser?
> >> >>
> >> >> Given that non-Internet Explorer browsers are now able to 'model' the
> >> >> behavior
> >> >> of an Internet Explorer browser, a distinction between the product
> >> >> Internet Explorer and the behavior of this product needs to be made.
> >> >> To
> >> >> say
> >> >> a site is only accessible with an IE browser can mean two different
> >> >> things.
> >> >> Either the product Internet Explorer or the behavior of an IE browser
> >> >> is
> >> >> needed.  "Free" browsers able to 'model' Internet Explorer behavior
> >> >> provide
> >> >> the means for less economically fortunate users to access sites
> >> >> optimized
> >> >> for the Internet Explorer browser without incurring any expense or
> >> >> exposure
> >> >> to any of the Internet Explorer security issues often cited.
> >> >
> >> > however how does this allow people using specific adaptive software use
> >> > the site,  for example a cheap (poor) visually impaired user. accessing
> >> > the site via Linux operating system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak text
> >> > to
> >> > audio adaptive software.
> >> >
> >> > 508 (as does title II and III of ADA) prohibits requiring individuals
> >> > to
> >> > purchase anything other users do  not have to purchase.. if requiring
> >> > IE,
> >> > does that mean that the secure site must provide free a copy of JAWS
> >> > ???
> >> >
> >> > Bob
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Kurt Mattes
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: david poehlman [mailto:david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com]
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:37 AM
> >> >> To: Mattes, Kurt (Bank One); kpierce2000@earthlink.net;
> >> >> John.Carpenter@pdms.com; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I guess so but could you ellaborate on your question.
> >> >>
> >> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>
> >> >> To: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
> >> >> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>;
> >> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:22 AM
> >> >> Subject: RE: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Does "The law should read that anyone should be able to access
> >> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits
> >> >> their
> >> >> needs." include any browser capable of connecting to the Internet?
> >> >>
> >> >> Kurt Mattes
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
> >> >> Behalf Of david poehlman
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:10 AM
> >> >> To: Kelly Pierce; John Carpenter; wai-ig list
> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Kelly and all, the laws are flawed in this fashion.  they assume lack
> >> >> of
> >> >> people function when the issue is lack of technology function.  I just
> >> >> read
> >> >> a piece on this in fact from the ncd called "righting the ada" which
> >> >> sadly
> >> >> carries this mal assumption forward.  90 ercent or more of the issues
> >> >> we
> >> >> face are artificial and the sooner they are dealt with, the better.
> >> >> It
> >> >> is
> >> >> as you point out 2005 and was not right in any age to task technology
> >> >> with
> >> >> setting the tone for people's lives but rather technology should be
> >> >> tasked
> >> >> to serve us.
> >> >>
> >> >> I did state in my message that this has nothing to do with law, but
> >> >> perhaps
> >> >> I was in error.  The law should read that anyone should be able to
> >> >> access
> >> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits
> >> >> their
> >> >> needs.  There are many places in the country and in the world where is
> >> >> is
> >> >> a
> >> >> mis fit and always will be.
> >> >>
> >> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
> >> >> To: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; "John
> >> >> Carpenter" <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list"
> >> >> <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:03 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> >> >> To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>; "John Carpenter"
> >> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:42 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Part of accessibility is choice.  I should be able to access any web
> >> >> > site
> >> >> > with any combination of user agent and technology accessibly and it
> >> >> > be
> >> >> > accessible.  Is this a tall order?  Yes, is it necessary, yes.
> >> >>
> >> >> **Not under the Americans with Disabilities Act.  As long as the means
> >> >> of
> >> >> communication made available to you is effective, I.e. allowing you to
> >> >> complete a certain task, then the bank has fulfilled its access
> >> >> obligations.
> >> >> Under the ADA, courts view access by functional performance, not by
> >> >> process.
> >> >> they also don't consider optimal or preferential means but the means
> >> >> that
> >> >> is
> >> >> sufficient to complete the specified task.  You may choose not to use
> >> >> Internet Explorer, but in 2005 I have not seen an argument saying that
> >> >> it
> >> >> is
> >> >> unreasonable or insufficient to require people with disabilities only
> >> >> to
> >> >> use
> >> >> Internet Explorer to access online banking services.  It seems like
> >> >> you
> >> >> want
> >> >> access beyond what is required beyond that of the ADA.
> >> >>
> >> >> Kelly
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> **********************************************************************
> >> >> This transmission may contain information that is privileged,
> >> >> confidential
> >> >> and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the
> >> >> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> >> >> copying,
> >> >> distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including
> >> >> any
> >> >> reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this
> >> >> transmission
> >> >> in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the
> >> >> material
> >> >> in
> >> >> its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you
> >> >> **********************************************************************
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
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> >> > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> >> > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
> >>
> >> > -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
> >> >  -
> >> >   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
> >> >    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
> >> >    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems,
> >> > engineers
> >> >    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
> >> > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
> >> > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
> >> > privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
> > -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
> >   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
> >    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
> >    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, engineers
> >    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
> > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
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> > privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
> >
> >
>
>

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
-   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, engineers
    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
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Received on Wednesday, 2 February 2005 03:13:29 GMT

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