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RDFCore WG minutes for the Telecon 2002-02-01

From: <jos.deroo.jd@belgium.agfa.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:28:08 +0100
To: w3c-rdfcore-wg@w3.org
Message-Id: <OFC3157355.8B39C10A-ONC1256B53.007AF897@bayer-ag.com>
RDFCore WG minutes for the Telecon 2002-02-01
---------------------------------------------

   Transcript:
   -- http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2002-02-01.html
   (also attached)

   Agenda:
   -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0465.html

1: Allocate scribe: Jos De Roo

2: Roll Call
   Participants:
    - Daniel Brickley
    - Brian McBride (chair)
    - Dave Beckett
    - Frank Manola
    - Jeremey Carroll
    - Ron Daniel
    - Jos De Roo (scribe)
    - Graham Klyne
    - Aaron Swartz
    - Pat Hayes
    - Patrick Stickler
    - Sergey Melnik
    - Mike Dean

   Regrets:
    - Jan Grant
    - Eric Miller

   Absent:
    - Bill dehOra
    - Frank Boumphrey
    - Guha
    - Martyn Horner
    - KWON Hyung-Jin
    - Michael Kopchenov
    - Ora Lassila
    - Stephen Petschulat
    - Pierre G Richard
    - Rael Dornfest
    - Satoshi Nakamura
    - Yoshiyuki Kitahara

3: Review Agenda
   AOB: none

4: Next telecon - 10am Boston time, 08 Feb 2002

5: Please register for the face to face meeting.
   | -- http://cgi.w3.org/Register/selectUser.pl?_w3c_meetingName=techplenary2002

   PatH can't come

6: Review Minutes of 2002-01-25 telecon with correction
   | -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0428.html
   | -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0462.html

   APPROVED

7: Confirm Status of Completed Actions

   the status of those actions (which you can find in the agenda) was NOT DISCUSSED
   -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0465.html

8: Status of Test Syntaxs WD
   | ACTION: 2001-11-30#4 Dave Beckett  Create test cases covering
   |   reserved use of rdf names in this proposal.
   | ACTION: 2002-01-18#2  DaveB  Prepare some test cases for unrecognized xml:attributes
   | -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0243.html

   DaveB raised the point that the syntax WD is affected by issues
     like datatypes, reification clarification, testcase progress
   DanC wondered how datatypes would affect the syntax spec?
   AaronSw (in IRC) thinks syntax-> triples mapping

9: Status of Test Cases WD
   | ACTION: 2001-11-30#3 Jan Grant Get access to test case areas of W3C site
   | ACTION: 2002-01-11#2  JanG  post summary of Test Cases WD outstanding updates to list.
   | ACTION: 2002-01-11#1  bwm  persue CVS access for Jan with EM

   JanG should now have access (as well as DaveB)
   DanB confirmed that ACTION COMPLETED

10: Status of Primer
    | -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0300.html

    FrankM seemed to have some trouble with the fact that not all pages
      in http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/ are public
    DanC said (via IRC): frank, you can chacl stuff that you put there.
    FrankM talked about how to deal with open issues, but
    DanC: please, no! no model theory nor datatypes gunk in the primer.
    FrankM is mainly seeking feedback (volunteers)

    ACTION DanBri to make everything in primer directory public

11: Model Theory WD
    | Propose approve latest Model Theory WD for publication
    | -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0422.html

    PatH asked to take a look at his Bermuda triangle message
    there was some (un)tidy literal discussion
    MikeD (via IRC): re tidy literals, I'm concerned that requiring
      shared common string values imposes an onerous requirement on
      developers (e.g. additional hash table lookups)
    GrahamK din't recommend holding up MT publication, as long as it's
      correct and coherent as far as it goes. Improvements can come later.
    DanC asked (via IRC) to put "there are issues here" in SOTD
      (which is the "Status Of This Document")

    DECISION publish current working draft; no abstention; no dissent

12: Datatypes
    | 2002-01-11#6  miked  to drop an example of both approaches
    | (implicit / explicit) to datatyping to the mailing list.
    | 2002-01-18#5 Sergey Analyze both proposals against the desiderata
    | Goals:
    |   Establish the facts of the differences between the two proposals
    |   Establish whether a WG view is emerging from the discussion
    | -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0109.html
    | -- http://www-nrc.nokia.com/sw/TDL.html
    | -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0118.html
    | -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0224.html

    Brian: is datatyping summary V3 accurate?
    -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0466.html
    DanC: this captures my issues
    GrahamK: as close as we can get at this time
    PatrickS: yes it does
    JeremyC: happy with the whole list
    DanC: B9 shouldn't be there
      focus on B4 which is the sharpest distinction between S and TDL
      did a poll for B4: bunch of implementation that have to change with TDL
      implementation experience: RQL, Seaborne, Jeremy's software,
      Libby Miller all implemented S.
    PatH: working on part 2 of Bermuda triangle and says that with
      appropriate care there should be no issues with monotonicity
    Brian: want to publish datatypes as note, hope it's compatible with 1.0
    SergeyM: make datatype exchange interoperable

    STRAW POLL 7 prefer S, 6 prefer TDL.
      2 cannot live with S, 2 cannot live with TDL.
      some small movement compared to last week's straw poll

13: Reification
    | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0218.html

    FrankM (as issue owner) will move forward
    DanC: don't kid yourself by looking at syntax questions only
    PatH: you can summarize simply with entailment

    ACTION: Pat will come up with test cases

14: AOB

    think about f2f agenda

    Danbri help with publishing of MT

[16:09:15] meeting closed



14:01:03 <logger_2> logger_2 has joined #rdfcore
14:01:03 <logger_2> logger_2 has joined #rdfcore
14:01:03 <zahn.openprojects.net> Users on #rdfcore: @logger_2
14:01:03 <ChanServ> You do not have AutoOp access to [#rdfcore]
14:01:03 <ChanServ> You do not have AutoOp access to [#rdfcore]
14:15:29 <AaronSw> AaronSw has joined #rdfcore
14:34:11 <DanC> DanC has joined #rdfcore
14:46:49 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdfcore
14:49:38 <xena> xena has joined #rdfcore
14:49:45 <xena> *** Zakim@w3c (~rrs-bridg@tux.w3.org) joins
14:49:52 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, this is rdfc
14:49:53 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> sorry, AaronSw, I do not see a conference named 'rdfc'
14:50:00 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, list conferences
14:50:01 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> I see no active conferences
14:50:09 <DanC> ah! hi danbri
14:50:21 <danbri> Just got msg via josh... still want me to call you?
14:50:25 <DanC> er... danbri?
14:50:37 <danbri> er... DanC?
14:50:40 <DanC> er... no, no need to call; this will do
14:51:08 <danbri> * danbri remembers he talked to EricM in IRC after Eric sent msg about being on plane this morning
14:51:13 <DanC> umm... I wonder if I can make my points for the telcon from here.
14:51:19 <DanC> or if I should try to call in somehow.
14:51:40 <AaronSw> where are you now, DanC?
14:52:16 <DanC> I'm at a friend's house in KC. They have power. We don't.
14:52:22 <AaronSw> ugh.
14:52:30 <DanC> I'd rsure like to respond to Jeremy (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2002Jan/0213.html)
14:53:30 <DanC> (a) Jeremy says the current model theory doesn't license the conclusion in the age/title test case. EXACTLY! That's because the model theory is
AFU w.r.t. literals.
14:54:01 <DanC> (b) he says there's no backwards compatibility argument. 4tf? I've got reports from about 6 or 7 implementors so far, all of which implement S,
not TDL.
14:54:45 <bwm> bwm has joined #rdfcore
14:54:51 <danbri> danbri has changed the topic to: W3C RDFCore WG Telecon 2002-02-01 -- agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0465.html
14:55:01 <DanC> * DanC waves to brian
14:55:08 <bwm> hi dan
14:55:14 <danbri> hi brian!
14:55:21 <bwm> glad to see you back online
14:55:29 <bwm> G'day all
14:55:38 <bwm> rushing from one meeting to the next
14:55:50 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, list conferences
14:55:51 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> I see no active conferences
14:56:49 <DanC> * DanC reviews agenda...
14:57:09 <JosD> JosD has joined #rdfcore
14:57:39 <AaronSw> * AaronSw wonders if the Jema bot is coming online
14:57:43 <DanC> * DanC grabs cellphone...
14:58:04 <AaronSw> * AaronSw raises hand
14:58:05 <xena> * Zakim@w3c sees *, AaronSw@opn on the speaker queue
14:58:12 <AaronSw> cool
14:58:16 <danbri> * danbri tries to digest results of danc's rdfig query... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2002Jan/0199.html
14:58:18 <AaronSw> * AaronSw lowers hand
14:58:20 <xena> * Zakim@w3c sees no one on the speaker queue
14:59:33 <danbri> * danbri wonders whether Ralph knows Zakim is talking to a proxy (and whether it might cause problems -- zakim has lots of nifty features...)
15:00:09 <AaronSw> * AaronSw hasn't told Ralph
15:00:14 <AaronSw> zakim, list conferences
15:00:20 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, list conferences
15:00:21 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> I see SW_RDF Cor()10:00AM
15:00:28 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, this is SW_RDF
15:00:28 <DanC> * DanC is on Zakim #7332
15:00:29 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> ok, AaronSw
15:00:46 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +??P3
15:01:12 <DanC> AaronSw, send ralph mail about your xena bridge right now, ok?
15:01:14 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> + +1.847.877.aabb
15:01:23 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> +1.847.877.aabb is me
15:01:28 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> i am +1.847.877.aabb
15:01:34 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> +1.847.877.aabb is AaronSw
15:01:37 <DanC> Ralph is looking at using Zakim as a semantic web privacy use case; this won't help him out.
15:01:57 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +EricP
15:02:06 <AaronSw> hm?
15:02:08 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> + +35850483aacc
15:02:27 <danbri> zakim, EricP is DanBri
15:02:39 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, EricP is DanBri
15:02:40 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +DanBri; got it
15:02:43 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +??P7
15:02:58 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, i am +1.847.877.aabb
15:02:59 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +AaronSw; got it
15:03:16 <DanC> Zakim, who's here?
15:03:24 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> Zakim, who's here?
15:03:25 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> I see Manola, ??P1, +1.913.636.aaaa, ??P3, AaronSw, DanBri, +35850483aacc, ??P7
15:03:51 <danbri> Who has b/g noise (kids)? Zakim could mute them...
15:04:06 <DanC> 8 on the bridge, per Zakim
15:04:17 <DanC> * DanC thinks the bg noise is me
15:04:23 <JosD> danb+
15:04:36 <JosD> fave+
15:04:48 <JosD> jeremy+
15:04:55 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> + +1.850.202.aadd
15:05:12 <DanC> * DanC is calling from a make-shift office; there's no power in my normal office. apologies for background noise; I'll try to mute
15:05:35 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, mute DanC
15:05:37 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> sorry, AaronSw, I do not see a party named 'DanC'
15:05:45 <JosD> danC+JosD+Jang-regrets+FrankM+
15:06:16 <JosD> Patrick+Aaron+PatH+
15:06:22 <AaronSw> ugh mail being blocked due to relay
15:06:31 <DanC> 9 on the bridge per Zakim
15:06:37 <JosD> AOB: none
15:07:04 <JosD> register for f2f: PatH can't come (wht a pitty)
15:07:22 <JosD> minutes of last meeting: approved
15:07:29 <danbri> Aaron, I'm going to let Ralph know about the proxying to Zakim; Zakim's a critical resource for several WGs...
15:07:58 <jjc> jjc has joined #rdfcore
15:08:13 <DanC> the cvs request went in; systems folks took a whack, but various sh*t happened.
15:08:29 <JosD> status of CVS access for JanG: will be done today (saidBy DanB)
15:08:58 <DanC> the cvs request was for 4 accounts.
15:09:20 <gk> gk has joined #rdfcore
15:09:35 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +??P9
15:10:20 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, +??P9 is probably GrahamK
15:10:21 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +GrahamK?; got it
15:10:28 <JosD> DanB: DaveB is on the list ofCVS access
15:10:32 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +??P10
15:10:32 <DanC> -- 8: Status of Test Syntaxs WD
15:10:54 <JosD> GrahamK+
15:11:10 <JosD> RonD+
15:11:18 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, +??P10 is RonD
15:11:19 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +RonD; got it
15:11:32 <DanC> which issues? ah... datatypes, reification
15:11:35 <JosD> agenda item 8: syntax review
15:11:41 <DanC> hmm... how would datatypes affect the syntax spec?
15:12:25 <JosD> DaveB: reification clarification; testcase progress
15:12:26 <AaronSw> they may affect the syntax->triples mapping
15:12:30 <DanC> "primer directory"? pointer?
15:12:35 <AaronSw> .google rdfprimer
15:12:35 <xena> rdfprimer: http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer
15:12:41 <AaronSw> that's the dir
15:12:53 <AaronSw> Frank: I have stuff in the directory, but need a W3T to activate them
15:13:11 <AaronSw> Danbri: i'll take a look now
15:13:27 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +MDean
15:13:29 <JosD> FrankM: status of the primer... some trouble with jigedit
15:13:57 <gk> gk has left #rdfcore
15:13:59 <DanC> no, that's not possible, frank.
15:14:01 <gk> gk has joined #rdfcore
15:14:08 <DanC> frank, you can chacl stuff that you put there.
15:14:08 <JosD> action DanBri: make everything in that directory public
15:14:14 <mdean> mdean has joined #rdfcore
15:14:24 <mdean> Mike Dean just joined -- sorry I'm late
15:14:32 <DanC> pointer to "primer directory" anyone? AaronSw ?
15:14:32 <mdean> mdean is now known as mdean_
15:14:36 <JosD> general request for that?
15:14:36 <AaronSw> .google rdfprimer
15:14:38 <xena> rdfprimer: http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer
15:14:41 <AaronSw> that's it DanC
15:14:46 <AaronSw> http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/
15:15:05 <JosD> FrankM: seeking feedback
15:15:30 <DanC> danbri, do you know where the legendary "primer directory"?
15:15:50 <AaronSw> DanC, danbri it's http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/
15:16:03 <AaronSw> * AaronSw wonders if he's getting thru
15:16:09 <JosD> FrankM: dealing with open issues
15:16:11 <DanC> * DanC raises hand
15:16:12 <xena> * Zakim@w3c sees *, DanC@opn on the speaker queue
15:16:21 <DanC> please, no! no model theory nor datatypes gunk in the primer.
15:16:40 <JosD> MikeD+
15:16:42 <danbri> DanC, you've asked 3 times, but seem to be missing the URLs AaronSw and Xena mention above
15:17:02 <AaronSw> chair acks *, DanC@opn
15:17:07 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> *, DanC@opn
15:17:11 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> chair acks *, DanC@opn
15:17:12 <xena> * Zakim@w3c sees *, DanC@opn on the speaker queue
15:17:20 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> q=
15:17:21 <xena> * Zakim@w3c sees no one on the speaker queue
15:18:04 <JosD> DanC: should that all be in the primer
15:18:35 <JosD> agenda item 11: MT
15:19:25 <JosD> PatH: consider Bermuda triangle
15:20:12 <gk> I don't recommend holding up MT publication, as long as it's correct and coherent as far as it goes.  Improvements can come later.
15:21:11 <gk> The value of publication is that it gives us all a common base to discuss from, methinks.
15:22:50 <danbri> re <JosD> action DanBri: make everything in that directory public
15:23:12 <DanC> * DanC regrets bringing up this discussion here; I really want to just decide on datatypes, at which point this will all be mute.
15:23:30 <JosD> some tidy literal discussion...
15:23:35 <danbri> all http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/  files are now public. Let me know asap if there's anything published that shouldn't be.
15:23:41 <mdean_> re tidy literals, I'm concerned that requiring shared common string values imposes an onerous requirement on developers (e.g. additional hash
table lookups)
15:23:48 <danbri> JosD, please mark that action completed.
15:23:55 <DanC> I'd agree, gk, provided there
15:24:03 <DanC> 's stuff in the SOTD to say "there are issues here"
15:24:18 <gk> SOTD?
15:24:26 <DanC> SOTD = "status of this document"
15:24:26 <danbri> status of this doc
15:24:38 <JosD> decision to publish MT
15:24:40 <gk> thanks.  Yes.
15:24:48 <JosD> no dissent
15:25:05 <JosD> item 12: datatypes
15:25:13 <AaronSw> no sergey :(
15:25:21 <JosD> no SergeyM
15:26:17 <JosD> chair: issues list current datatypes: is that accurate?
15:26:21 <danbri> Brian's datatyping summary v3 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jan/0466.html
15:26:29 <JosD> i.e. V3
15:26:39 <AaronSw> DanC: this captures my issues.
15:27:09 <JosD> GrahamK: as close as we can get at this time
15:27:44 <DanC> * DanC raises hand to report on a pile of implementation experience http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2002Jan/0199.html
15:27:45 <xena> * Zakim@w3c sees *, DanC@opn on the speaker queue
15:27:50 <JosD> PatrickS: yes it does, missing link, but yes
15:28:14 <DanC> "doesn't allow wiggle room" <- amen
15:28:29 <JosD> JeremyC: happy with the whole list
15:28:53 <DanC> B9 shouldn't be there.
15:29:54 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> chair acks * DanC@opn
15:29:55 <xena> * Zakim@w3c sees DanC@opn on the speaker queue
15:30:05 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> chair acks DanC@opn
15:30:06 <xena> * Zakim@w3c sees no one on the speaker queue
15:30:23 <JosD> B9 is gone
15:31:01 <DanC> brian, can we please focus on B4? I think that's the sharpest distinction between S and TDL
15:31:28 <JosD> PatH: working on part2 of Bermuda triangle
15:31:56 <DanC> argh! more friggin gymnastics! NOTE WELL: S requires no model theory gymnastics
15:32:06 <JosD> JeremyC: with care it is monotonic (will address that in the message)
15:32:31 <JosD> oops... it was PatH who said that
15:33:00 <JosD> chair: coming back on last weeks straw poll
15:33:16 <AaronSw> MikeD: can live with either, prefers S
15:33:26 <JosD> some small movement
15:33:38 <AaronSw> PatH: with TDL's current model theory, I prefer S. but i think i can fix TDL, then i prefer it.
15:33:59 <gk> Brian, re issues:  I have a concern about pairs in TDL;  message sent to list today with sample cases
15:34:28 <AaronSw> DaveB: can live with both, probably prefer TDL but waiting for fixes... need to go thru examples.
15:35:31 <AaronSw> Brian: want to publish datatypes as note, hope it's compatible with 1.0
15:35:34 <danbri> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2002Jan/0199.html
15:35:34 <danbri> how does existing RDF software handle this datatypes test?
15:35:39 <danbri> (DanC's msg)
15:35:43 <JosD> chair: expects dt stuff to be written as a note, consistent with rdf 1.0
15:35:59 <AaronSw> DanC: implementation experience: RQL, Seaborne, Jeremy's software, Libby Miller all implemented S.
15:36:58 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +??P12
15:37:19 <AaronSw> Patrick: yes... but they said they want to move towards TDL in the future.
15:38:26 <JosD> DanC: did a poll for B4: bunch of implementation that have to change with TDL
15:38:52 <JosD> PatH: people can choose their layer of entailment
15:39:18 <JosD> SergeyM+
15:39:19 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, +??P12 is probably Sergey
15:39:21 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +Sergey?; got it
15:40:25 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> Zakim, mute AaronSw
15:40:26 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> AaronSw should now be muted
15:41:30 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, +1.913 is probably DanC
15:41:31 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +DanC?; got it
15:41:33 <JosD> SergeyM: make datatype exchange interoprable
15:41:42 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, +1.850 is probably PatH
15:41:44 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> +PatH?; got it
15:42:16 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, +35850483aacc is probably PatrickS
15:42:18 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> sorry, AaronSw, I do not understand your question
15:42:36 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, +35850483 is probably PatrickS
15:42:37 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> sorry, AaronSw, I do not understand your question
15:42:49 <JosD> some very strong discussion which is hard to summarize...
15:42:49 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, +3585is probably PatrickS
15:42:50 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> I don't understand '+3585is probably PatrickS', AaronSw. Try /msg Zakim help
15:42:52 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, +3585 is probably PatrickS
15:42:53 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> sorry, AaronSw, I do not understand your question
15:43:14 <xena> *** Ralph@w3c (~swick@pfunk.w3.org) joins
15:43:55 <xena> <Ralph@w3c> zakim, what conference is this?
15:43:56 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> this is SW_RDF Cor()10:00AM
15:45:15 <JosD> DanB: we have license to that inference, we can't go back
15:45:24 <AaronSw> I think that was DanC
15:45:42 <JosD> SergeyM: they will continue to work the way they did
15:46:38 <AaronSw> DanC: Please don't generalize current feedback to the community
15:47:26 <JosD> FrankM: Sergey is a member of the community
15:47:58 <JosD> PatH: we don't have to say that their code is wrong
15:49:08 <JosD> JeremyC: TDL just gives you the option
15:49:10 <DanC> yikes! that terrifies me: "entailment and query semantics don't need to be this closely related"
15:49:28 <JosD> (me too)
15:49:42 <DanC> S allows the datatype comparison too.
15:50:58 <DanC> please let's not try to make everybody happy; please let's choose the simplest design that can work.
15:51:10 <gk> Frank has a good question, and I think it has a good answer...
15:51:58 <gk> In the absence of datatyping information in the RDF graph, I expect to see DT-entailment reduce to the case described by S
15:52:15 <DanC> S uses RDF to build datatypes; why is it that we advocate RDF triples to represent all sorts of stuff, *except* the stuff that we ourselves are
particularly interested in: languages, datatypes, and such. Those we push down into a magic layer. I just don't get it.
15:52:23 <gk> But when datatypes are part of the graph, DT-entailment becomes more "picky"
15:53:11 <DanC> why are we waiting on PatH?
15:53:12 <gk> The reason, FWIW, is that some people don't like the S way of doing things
15:53:16 <DanC> can we do another straw-poll today?
15:53:17 <JosD> chair: we really need PatH input
15:54:49 <JosD> PatrickS: local+global and one vocabulary is req?
15:55:10 <JosD> DanC: can we do a straw poll?
15:55:29 <JosD> chair: no objection
15:57:26 <xena> *** AaronSw@w3c (~Snak@164.68.70.168) joins
15:57:33 <xena> <AaronSw@w3c> zakim, unmute aaronsw
15:57:34 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> AaronSw should no longer be muted
15:59:03 <JosD> 7 prefer S
15:59:13 <AaronSw> 7 prefer S, 6 prefer T. 2 cannot live with S, 2 cannot live with TDL.
15:59:22 <DanC> hmm... it's not clear that straw poll was worth the time. oh well.
15:59:50 <danbri> why say that?
16:00:52 <DanC> in particular, brian, pls make sure PatH addresses B4 clearly. (I hope it doesn't result in a "maybe")
16:00:56 <JosD> PatH: is Brians issues list accurate?
16:01:48 <JosD> yes, except for Graham's message today on the mailing list
16:02:24 <gk> Message URI is:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Feb/0004.html
16:03:12 <JosD> PatrickS is asking for some argument w.r.t. his issue
16:03:29 <DanC> B1 says "if one wants to use both idiom A and idiom B"; dublin core can just say "everybody use B". hence they don't need double the number of
properties.
16:03:37 <JosD> item 13: reification
16:04:55 <JosD> FrankM (it's his issue) will move forward
16:05:58 <JosD> DanC: don't kid yourself by looking at syntax questions only
16:06:23 <AaronSw> * AaronSw has to disconnect. will clean up bots later.
16:07:14 <JosD> PatH: you can summarize simply with entailment
16:08:13 <JosD> action: Pat will come up with test cases
16:08:25 <JosD> end of the agenda
16:08:26 <gk> FWIW, I'm working on a document that tries to explain use of reification in terms of MT, as a way of implementing N3-style fomulae/contexts.  But
it's slow work.
16:08:43 <JosD> AOB: f2f agenda
16:09:01 <DanC> note: I'm at python10 much of next week.
16:09:08 <JosD> AOB2: Danbri help with publishing of MT
16:09:15 <JosD> meeting closed
16:09:31 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> -RonD
16:09:43 <JosD> we will miss you DanB
16:09:45 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> -??P3
16:09:54 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> -AaronSw
16:10:06 <JosD> oh I meant DanC
16:10:31 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> -MDean
16:25:33 <bwm> start reading from "So what if ..."  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Dec/0080.html
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16:33:12 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> -DanC?
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16:37:43 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> -Manola
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16:56:45 <xena> <Zakim@w3c> SW_RDF Cor()10:00AM has ended
Received on Friday, 1 February 2002 17:28:31 EST

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