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[Minutes and questions+comments] MLW-LT minutes 2013-01-28

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:36:14 +0100
Message-ID: <5106A8FE.1010303@w3.org>
To: "public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org" <public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org>
Hi all,

I could only participate during today's call. Minutes are at

http://www.w3.org/2013/01/28-mlw-lt-minutes.html

in the below minutes text I have added comments or questions, marked 
with ">FS: ". Can you please reply to this with the related issue 
number(s) in the mail subject?

Thanks a lot in advance,

Felix


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                                mlw-lt wg

28 Jan 2013

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/28-mlw-lt-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Karl, Olaf-Michael, shaunm, joerg (IRC), Pedro,
           Giuseppe, Clemens, Pablo, leroy, mdelolmo, Marcis,
           Ankit, DomJones, chriLi, felix (partially on IRC), Serge

    Regrets
           Dave, David, Felix, Naoto, Yves

    Chair
           Arle

    Scribe
           Arle

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]issue review
          2. [5]AOB
      * [6]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

issue review

    Minutes from Prague can be seen here:
    [7]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-l
    t/2013Jan/0197.html

       [7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Jan/0197.html

    See
    [8]http://services.w3.org/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%
    2FInternational%2Fmultilingualweb%2Flt%2Fdrafts%2Fits20%2Ftools
    %2Fxslt%2Fdisco-for-its20.xsl&xmlfile=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%
    2FInternational%2Fmultilingualweb%2Flt%2Ftrack%2Fapi%2Fdump%3Ff
    ull&content-type=&submit=transform for the list of issues.

       [8] http://services.w3.org/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FInternational%2Fmultilingualweb%2Flt%2Fdrafts%2Fits20%2Ftools%2Fxslt%2Fdisco-for-its20.xsl&xmlfile=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FInternational%2Fmultilingualweb%2Flt%2Ftrack%2Fapi%2Fdump%3Ffull&content-type=&submit=transform

    Start from
    [9]http://services.w3.org/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%
    2FInternational%2Fmultilingualweb%2Flt%2Fdrafts%2Fits20%2Ftools
    %2Fxslt%2Fdisco-for-its20.xsl&xmlfile=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%
    2FInternational%2Fmultilingualweb%2Flt%2Ftrack%2Fapi%2Fdump%3Ff
    ull&content-type=&submit=transform

       [9] http://services.w3.org/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FInternational%2Fmultilingualweb%2Flt%2Fdrafts%2Fits20%2Ftools%2Fxslt%2Fdisco-for-its20.xsl&xmlfile=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FInternational%2Fmultilingualweb%2Flt%2Ftrack%2Fapi%2Fdump%3Ffull&content-type=&submit=transform

    issue-67?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-67 -- Change definition of regular expression
    for allowed characters -- open

    <trackbot>
    [10]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/67

      [10] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/67

    Shaun: can you hear us?
    ... Wrote an email to a list with a safe subset of regex
    character classes. It is smaller in features than anticipated,
    but for six engines, that is what it wa.
    ... When we last spoke, I'm not sure what the decision was.

    Arle: No decision taken in Prague.

>FS: question: does anyone object against Shaun's regex at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Jan/0180.html
if not, we can move forward to the next step (defining the regex to validate it) and be done.

    Shaun: I will continue and try to write a portable regular
    expression to describe the portable regular expression. We
    don't want to accidentally use a feature in some engine.

    Arle: We will have to go to another last call anyway, so we can
    continue.

>FS: sorry, Arle, but this is not yet settled. Please don't take another LC for absolutely needed yet.


  issue-105?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-105 -- I18N-ISSUE-245: Consider replacing
    Unicode block escapes with script escapes [ITS-20] -- open

    <trackbot>
    [11]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/105

      [11] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/105

    Shaun: We need to point to one specification to explain regex,
    even if we use a subset.

    issue-69?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-69 -- recursive nesting of external rules --
    open

    <trackbot>
    [12]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/69

      [12] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/69

    issue-70?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-70 -- Defined order of precedence missing
    inherited local values -- open

    <trackbot>
    [13]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/70

      [13] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/70

    No comment

    <fsasaki> Sorry, on irc only. But.for the record, "another last
    call anyway " is not yet true.

    issue-71?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-71 -- Section 5.8 (annotatorsRef) -- open

    <trackbot>
    [14]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/71

      [14] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/71

    no comment

    issue-72?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-72 -- Section 8.12 (Provenance Data Category)
    -- open

    <trackbot>
    [15]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/72

      [15] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/72

    no comments

    issue-73?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-73 -- NIF comments -- open

    <trackbot>
    [16]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/73

      [16] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/73

    no comments

    Christian: Actually, Felix wants to reach out to Sebastian
    Hellman to clarify the status of NIF 1.0 and 2.0.


>FS: correct, I will do that. But I owe Christian a separate reply on his comments to NIF, will provide that later.


  issue-74?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Comment on ITS 2.0 WD-its20-20121206 -
    Section 1.1 (Relation to ITS 1.0 and New Principles) -- open

    <trackbot>
    [17]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/74

      [17] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/74

    Christian: Before moving on, I haven't checked on the
    connection between canonical XML, Unicode normalization, and
    regular expression.

    Shaun: In general, regex is a mess with respect to Unicode
    normalization.
    ..Example: E + combining acute, if U+00E9 matches is up to the
    regex engine and whether it handles normalization.
    ... It is a huge mess. I would strongly recommend that people
    normalize their Unicode.

    Christian: This is good information. Makes a stronger case for
    Unicode normalization.

    Shaun: Would normally recommend normalization at every step. If
    there are chains where people don't do this, perhaps they have
    reasons. So I don't know if we say we MUST normalize, or if it
    is best practice.
    ... I would like to hear from people who make non-normalized
    Unicode. I don't know who they are and if there are problems.

    <scribe> ACTION: Shaun to draft text explaining importance of
    Unicode normalization and best practices on ISSUE-67 [recorded
    in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/28-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-430 - Draft text explaining
    importance of Unicode normalization and best practices on
    ISSUE-67 [on Shaun McCance - due 2013-02-04].

>FS: Christian, would such a BP note also help with your concerns about the NIF conversion? See your comment 3a at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0101.html
in that you mail "have to consider". But you don't say "require", "make a testable assertation", "provide tests" etc. Can you clarify whether a note would be sufficent?
Also as a reply to issue-85, 3b: if your answer to my question is "require", "make a testable assertation": why? We of course won't to be good citiczens with regards to normalization, but why require more than XQuery, XPath, HTML5, SPARQL ...?


  Christian: Thanks, Shaun for doing that.

    Karl: Should be only a note, and not include a MUST. In the
    complete standard, we should tell people how to do things, not
    MUST.

    Arle: +1

    <fsasaki> +1 to karl

    <omstefanov> +1 to Karl, too, based on experience with UN
    legacy texts

    No comments on issue-74

    issue-75?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-75 -- Comments related to "domain" -- open

    <trackbot>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/75

      [19] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/75

    Christian: for issue-74, I've tried to talk to Dave and David,
    but haven't heard back yet.

    Jörg, any comments on issue-75?

    See:
    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-comments/2013Jan/0022.html

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0022.html

    <joerg> I haven't got any feedback so far on
    [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-comments/2013Jan/0143.html

      [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0143.html

    Christian: Thanks to Jörg for his summaries and shepherding.
    His summaries are good and adequate. So far we only have
    resolved two of the three issues.
    ... Only 2b has been resolved.

>FS: Christian, could you clarify your view on the discussion at the f2f, see
http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-minutes.html#item09
for comment 2a (MT consuemr information), I thought the f2f discussion would go into the direction of a note. Do you agree? If yes, would you be available to draft the note?



  issue-76?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-76 -- clarification of "inconsistency" quality
    issue type needed -- open

    <trackbot>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/76

      [22] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/76

    Arle: I have to provide the text.

    issue-77?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-77 -- Precedence of global rules in HTML if
    both links and inline rules with "script" are available --
    closed

    <trackbot>
    [23]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/77

      [23] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/77

    [24]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04

    <fsasaki> Hi all, I have to leave, please write any complaint
    in irc, will look later :-)

    <pnietoca> Yes Jirka was the sheperd

    <pnietoca> see
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/21-mlw-lt-minutes.html

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/21-mlw-lt-minutes.html

    issue-78?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-78 -- I18N-ISSUE-203: Use of rel values in
    HTML -- open

    <trackbot>
    [26]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/78

      [26] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/78

    No comments.

    issue-79?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-79 -- I18N-ISSUE-204: Use of namespaces and
    HTML -- open

    <trackbot>
    [27]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/79

      [27] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/79

    Olaf-Michael: Sounds like a simple clarification.

    Arle: +1

    issue-80?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- I18N-ISSUE-205: Examples of html markup
    in section 6 -- open

    <trackbot>
    [28]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/80

      [28] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/80

    No comments

    issue-81?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-81 -- I18N-ISSUE-207: Term data category and
    dfn element -- open

    <trackbot>
    [29]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/81

      [29] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/81

    <Marcis> I think it was mentioned that this should be in a best
    practice document

    Arle: We would suggest mappings, but not be mandatory.

    <chriLi>
    [30]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#associating-its-with-existing-mar
    kup

      [30] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#associating-its-with-existing-markup

    <Marcis> The mapping goes one way but not the other way

    Christian: Maybe this explanation could be in a similar place
    where we had it for ITS 1.0.

    Marcis: If I recall, we discussed that the definition element
    is a sub-category of term, since you need a definition in HTML
    content, and only then can you use <dfn>, so we left with the
    understanding that it is in best-practice and not in the
    normative section.

    Christian: Old section 5 was normative.

>FS: correct, and it still is: see http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#associating-its-with-existing-markup . But the discussion at the f2f was not about the content of the old section 5. It was about whether rules specific to HTML should be normative.

  Arle: Question of prominence.

    <scribe> ACTION: Arle to discuss with Felix the best location
    for this mapping list on issue-81 [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/28-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-431 - Discuss with Felix the best
    location for this mapping list on issue-81 [on Arle Lommel -
    due 2013-02-04].


>FS: the best location is an a best practice document, see for XML
http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#relating-its-plus-xhtml

  Christian: For ITS 1.0, we used "associating" with existing
    markup. May be clearer with mapping, to resolve issues of
    bidirectionally.

>FS: +1 to "associating" rather than "mapping".

  Arle: "Associating" is fine.

    issue-82

    <trackbot> ISSUE-82 -- I18N-ISSUE-208: Mapping domains to
    nothing -- open

    <trackbot>
    [32]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/82

      [32] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/82

    no comments.

    issue-83?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-83 -- Notes on loc quality issue section --
    open

    <trackbot>
    [33]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/83

      [33] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/83

    Arle: Can't point to EN-15038. Out of scope. TS-11669 is more
    relevant, defines expectations about translation.
    ... Recommendation was to address quality in framework of
    TS-11669. That is be listed as an example of what the quality
    profile might point to, at a minimum.

    Christian: I still don't get the difference between metrics and
    expectations, metrics, etc.
    ... Explained some about it.
    ... I think it changes the semantics of the pointer. IF you use
    parameters instead of metric.

    <scribe> ACTION: Arle to draft out the differences in more
    detail on ISSUE-83. [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/28-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-432 - Draft out the differences in
    more detail on ISSUE-83. [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-02-04].

    Christian: For buyers, you would point to an SLA.
    ... We need to clarify what is here.

    issue-84?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-84 -- translate ITS 2.0 requirements w.r.t
    Indian [Indic] languages -- open

    <trackbot>
    [35]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/84

      [35] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/84

    Arle: Dave is taking care of this. We rejected most of them as
    out of scope.

    Olaf-Michael: Does anyone in the WG have experience with Indic
    languages?

    Serge: We translate into those languages.

    <chriLi> Aside: We got input which possibly overlaps already
    for ITS 1.0 (see
    [36]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Its0908LinguisticMarkup)

      [36] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Its0908LinguisticMarkup)

    Ankit: I have this experience. The issues they raise are valid,
    but as Dave replied, I agree.

    Christian: We did not include that into our requirements for
    1.0.

    issue-85?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-85 -- NLP Interchange Format (NIF) - 1.0/2.0,
    Canonical XML, Unicode Normalization Forms -- closed

    <trackbot>
    [37]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/85

      [37] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/85

    Duplicate of ISSUE-73

    issue-86?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-86 -- Comment on ITS 2.0 specification WD,
    i18n-ISSUE-209: Implementation commitment -- open

    <trackbot>
    [38]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/86

      [38] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/86

    Arle: This one is unsettled at present.

    No comments.

    issue-87?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-87 -- Comment on ITS 2.0 specification WD,
    i18n-ISSUE-210: Whitespace in ruby example -- open

    <trackbot>
    [39]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/87

      [39] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/87

    No comments

    issue-88?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-88 -- Comment on ITS 2.0 specification WD,
    i18n-ISSUE-211: Quote element in HTML [should be cite, q, or
    blockquote] -- open

    <trackbot>
    [40]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/88

      [40] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/88

    No comments.

    issue-89?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-89 -- Comment on ITS 2.0 specification WD,
    i18n-ISSUE-212: HTML5 in the ITS spec -- open

    <trackbot>
    [41]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/89

      [41] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/89

    Arle: To clarify we mean HTML5, not all HTML

>FS: we mean HTML5 or its successor. That's important, given that HTML5.1 draft has already beeen published.

  No comments

    issue-90?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-90 -- Comment on ITS 2.0 specification WD,
    i18n-ISSUE-214: directionality should be made normative, with
    informative additions -- open

    <trackbot>
    [42]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/90

      [42] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/90

    Arle: Not in minutes from Prague.

FS: all ruby and directionality related issues have been discussed in prague. See this mail
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0144.html
and the minutes.
http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-minutes.html#item22

Esp. people not at the f2f, please review the minutes and the 0144 mail and say it if you disagree with the questions made in the mail or have something to add to the minutes.


  issue-91?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-91 -- Comment on ITS 2.0 specification WD,
    i18n-ISSUE-215: Parts of Ruby section should be removed -- open

    <trackbot>
    [43]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/91

      [43] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/91

    issue-92?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-92 -- Comment on ITS 2.0 specification WD,
    i18n-ISSUE-216: Locale filter note -- open

    <trackbot>
    [44]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/92

      [44] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/92

    Arle: accepted. Moving text around in editorial fashion.

    No comments.

    issue-93?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-93 -- Case-insensitivity mode for predefined
    tokens undefined; should be ASCII-case-insensitivity -- closed

    <trackbot>
    [45]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/is
    sues/93

      [45] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/93

    No comments.

    Arle: review minutes:
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-minutes.html and
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html and send
    comments

      [46] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-minutes.html
      [47] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html

AOB

    Olaf-Michael: What's the schedule?

    Arle: You can attend one or both per week.

    Christian: We have a tighter meeting schedule to drive the
    schedule.


>FS: exactly. Please attend as many calls as possible. Thanks a lot for your help!

- Felix


    Arle: Please raise issues in meetings you can attend.
    ... Also, in the next meeting, Felix will explain the repeat
    last-call procedure.

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Arle to discuss with Felix the best location for
    this mapping list on issue-81 [recorded in
    [48]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/28-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Arle to draft out the differences in more detail
    on ISSUE-83. [recorded in
    [49]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/28-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Shaun to draft text explaining importance of
    Unicode normalization and best practices on ISSUE-67 [recorded
    in
    [50]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/28-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


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