- From: Jonathan Marsh <jmarsh@microsoft.com>
- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:31:35 -0700
- To: <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
Minutes originally posted to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Sep/0024.html (converted to plain text).
Minutes of XML Protocol WG telcon, September 11, 2003
Based on IRC log (no URL)
Attendence:
Erik Ackerman Lexmark
David Booth W3C
Allen Brookes Rogue Wave Software
Roberto Chinnici Sun Microsystems
Glen Daniels Macromedia
Youenn Fablet Canon
Dietmar Gaertner Software AG
Steve Graham Global Grid Forum
Tom Jordahl Macromedia
Jacek Kopecky Systinet
Sandeep Kumar Cisco Systems
Philippe Le Hégaret W3C
Amelia Lewis TIBCO
Steve Lind AT&T
Kevin Canyang Liu SAP
Lily Liu webMethods
Jonathan Marsh Chair (Microsoft)
Jeff Mischkinsky Oracle
Dale Moberg Cyclone Commerce
Jean-Jacques Moreau Canon
Bijan Parsia University of Maryland MIND Lab
Arthur Ryman IBM
Adi Sakala IONA Technologies
Jeffrey Schlimmer Microsoft
Igor Sedukhin Computer Associates
William Vambenepe Hewlett-Packard
Sanjiva Weerawarana IBM
Prasad Yendluri webMethods, Inc.
Regrets:
Umit Yalcinalp Oracle
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1. Assign scribe.
Lucky minute taker for this week is: Dietmar Gaertner
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2. Approval of minutes:
- Sept 4th telcon [.1]. Belated regrets from Bijan.
[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0018.html
Minutes approved.
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3. Review of Action items [.1].
RETIRED 2003-03-13: Don will write a proposal for annotating schema
with part information.
RETIRED 2003-05-13: DaveO to send a motivating example for R131.
PENDING 2003-07-31: Philippe to make a proposal for fixing the
HTTP binding.
PENDING 2003-09-04: Phillipe to put the link to WSDL validator
on the same place where other tools are listed.
DONE [.2] 2003-09-04: Amy to propose a list of suggested replacement
names for @name on the list.
PENDING 2003-09-04: Jacek to review Appendix E in light of message
removal.
DONE [.3] 2003-09-04: Editors to add new issue "Should we define a
new binding element for @soapActionURI?"
[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0010.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0021.html
New Action Items:
2003-09-11: Sanjiva to take care about import/include extensibility
(editorial)
2003-09-11: Sanjiva to take care about REQUIRED AII explict (editorial)
2003-09-11: Jeffrey to record redundant direction info as an issue
2003-09-11: Philippe to write a response to Mark Baker proposing a property
solution and ask whether this satisfies his request
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4. Administrivia
a. Sept FTF logistics [.1]. Draft agenda due any time now!
[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/arch/3/07/f2fSeptLogistics.html
Wednedsday all day meeting?
Doubts whether the second half of Wednesday is productive
There are no items yet for the joint meeting
ACTION: Kevin to check whether there's a room available
Strawpoll...
Decision: go for half a day; no need for Kevin to organize a room
for the afternoon.
List of registrants: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34650/ws0309/results
b. Upcoming FTFs
- November 3-5, San Francisco (Fujitsu)
- January, Toronto or Boston
- March, March 1-2 or 4-5, Cannes-Mandelieu, France.
... ongoing.
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5. Task Force Status.
a. Properties and Features (dormant)
b. Patterns
c. Attributes: note some negative positions [.1]. Please continue
discussion in preparation for FTF!
Some Task Force discussion continues on our list
Steve: Good discussion. Continue with Sanjiva's proposal
d. QA & Testing
[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0023.html
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6. New Issues. Merged issues list [.1].
- rename "operation" to "messages" or "message-group"? [.2, .3]
Q: do we want to consider this, or do we dismiss it
Somebody in favor?
Tomj: I am firmly against renaming operation!
Roberto_Chinnici: -1
Sanjiva not for renaming; makes proposal on the mailing list
JM: we are not going to record this as an issue
- (ed?) import/include extensible? [.4]
Sample available, but not normative.
JM: example: include has an href - ask for username and password
JM: Resolution: editorial
ACTION: Sanjiva to take care about import/include extensibility (editorial)
- (ed?) make REQUIRED AIIs explicit? [.4]
ACTION: Sanjiva to take care about REQUIRED AII explict (editorial)
- Redundant direction info in the model? [.5]
...redundacy not bad
Jeffsch in favor of keeping the direction info
* jjm sanjiva: programming model?
SW: direction is always redundant
TJ: in/out makes it clear
SW: pattern defines the semantics
TJ: in favor for the WSDL containing the information that makes it clear what's going on
DB: if e.g. firewall does not understnd the MEP URI do we want him to understand the direction info?
JS: Firewall needs: do not want to understand a new protocol fully but certain parts
JM: seems that this is an issue
JM: somebody to make a proposal
ACTION: record redundant direction info as an issue
JS: It will be issue 87
[.1] http://tinyurl.com/mwuy
(Note that [.1] redirects to
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/issues/wsd-issues.html)
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0019.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0024.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0030.html
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0045.html
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7. Patterns. New draft [.1]
- Issue 77: Is the "name" the correct [local name] for
interface/operation/input/@name? [.2]
Straw poll on summarized preferences from Amy [.3]
- messageName
- messageReference
- messageRef (Glen)
[.1] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/wsdl12/wsdl12-patterns.xml
[.2] http://tinyurl.com/mwuy#x77
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0038.html
JM: finalize straw poll on name preferences
JM: Any new thoughts?
JK prefers messageReference or shorter version
SW: MEPs define placeholder for messages
SW: messageReference not a correct name
.. Role does not seem to be appropriate either
GD: SOAP has roles
- role that a node takes
- role of MEP
it is more of a role that one of the parties plays
discussion on precedence imposed (or not) by role?
AL: does not agree that part 2 is ambiguous
DM: Role thesaurus alternatives act, acting, appearance, aspect, banana, bit, character,
clothing, execution, extra, face, guise, hero, heroine, ingenue, lead, look, part,
performance, personification, piece, player, portrayal, presentation, representation,
seeming, semblance, show, star, stint, super, title, walk-on
JM: we do not have a lot of defenders for role
DB: messageRole worth considering but puts the quote on role
AL: propose to vote for ...Role or "other"
JM: messageReference/messageRef as one option
Option 1: MessageName, 2: MessageReference, 3: Role or other
JM: "other" the other option
DB: My vote: 2 (MessageReference)
PlH: messageReference
JeffM: target reference
JM: is there a policy on abbreviations?
AR remembers that at one time we had a policy to not abbreviate
... discussion on whether there is or needs to be a general policy whether or not to
use abbreviations...
RC: href, idref, msgref
JM: anybody who can't live with messageReference?
...nobody raises his voice
JM: Decision: messageReference for now
JS: Issue 77 is closed.
JM: keep option to change it later if it turns out that the length is a problem
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8. Binding enhancements. New draft [.1, .2]
- Change @name from NCName to QName - not implemented?
[.1] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/wsdl12/wsdl12.xml#Binding
[.2] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/wsdl12/wsdl12.xml#Endpoint
JS has this on his todo list
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9. Naming the service resource [.1, .2]
- Latest discussion [.3, .4]
[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0008.html
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0107.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0145.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0148.html
...there was proposal in relation to target resource
DB: spoke to Anne Thomas Manes about her concerns
SW: there was an email thread and in the end she agreed to the poposal
...discussion...
JM: nothing to be done. Anne's request is satisfied
JeffM: statements about the uniqueness of URIs
JeffM: we have no facilities for determining the uniqueness
JM: nobody can prevent me writing a WSDL with targetNamespace "oracle.com"...
... but this is obviously not a good idea
JM: there's a TAG discussion in favor of going away from fragment identifiers
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10. Issue 64 [.1] Operations an HTTP verbs (Mark Baker) [.2, .3, .4]
Jacek's synthesis [.5]
[.1] http://tinyurl.com/mwuy#x64
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003May/0094.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jan/0103.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jan/0111.html
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0095.html
Long running issue on the agenda
Issue raised by M. Baker
Jack summarises:
HTTP interface vs. WSDL interface
Jack makes a proposal in his email on this thread
JM: abstract set of ...operations that are mapped to the correcponding HTTP verbs?
PlH: syntax not clear yet: we can imagine an attribute on the property
JM: thoughts on adding this functionality?
...discussion...
JM: summary: retain some of the information that is contained in the HTTP verb
JJM: understands that MB would like us to describe HTTP verbs as operations
SW: this should/is part of the HTTP binding
JK: likes Philippe's proposal
SW: important point: we want to be able to bind RESTful interfaces to different protocols
JM: what exactly does RESTful behaviour mean?
JM: could we ask MB to develop a set of properties that make it RESTful?
JS: wonders wether we need to care about the academic (but interesting) discussion
about these properties
JM: If we can show that our extensibility model is powerful enough
MB could write the extension that fulfills his request...
JK: agrees with MB that W3C Recs should fit well with the Web
JK: at least commit ourselfes (by re-chartering) that we will work on this
JS: doubts whether it is sufficent to achieve RESTfulness by annotation
PlH: properties on teh abstract level may conflict with the binding
JM: next step somebody to write a sample and get back to MB and explain how we believe
that this satiesfies his request
"... here's how you can use a property to annotate..."
ACTION: Philippe to write a response to MB proposing a property solution and ask whether this
satisfies his request
End of call.
Received on Wednesday, 17 September 2003 13:31:38 UTC