- From: Vinoski, Stephen <steve.vinoski@iona.com>
- Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:50:14 -0500
- To: "Cutler, Roger (RogerCutler)" <RogerCutler@chevrontexaco.com>
- Cc: <www-ws-arch@w3.org>
Comments embedded below. > The flood-gate comment was not about trust -- I was trying to > point out that > some of these definitions seem so general to me that they > would include > things that did stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with > the web or > anything that a reasonable person would consider the function of a web > service -- like having a person drive a car somewhere or fly > a kite or make > a telephone call to his grandmother. Or open the sluice gate > of a dam. Given that the definition that Mark and I've developed specifies URIs and standard internet protocols as key parts of what constitutes a Web Service, it clearly avoids the generality you fear. I assume therefore that your paragraph above is talking about other proposals. > It seems to be a position that isn't getting a lot of > agreement here, so I > guess I won't push it, but I would be happier with a definition that > sacrifices a little generality in order to say in simple, > understandable > terms what these things are. It seems to me that one way to > do that would > be to say that these things accept requests that are XML messages and > respond with XML messages. Since the XML thing is in our > charter -- and > since every reference I have been able to find says that this > is what web > services do -- I don't see that this limits anything unduly, > and it makes > perfectly clear, to me at least, that a whole bunch of > perverse things are > NOT web services. XML is a technology that can be used to implement web services, but we don't want to define Web Services in terms of technologies. Do we define objects in terms of Java or C++? Do we define a network in terms of Ethernet or CAT-5? > Add that the web service is addressed by a > URI and you > eliminate a bunch of other things, like orchestrations, that > are not web > services per se. I disagree. I am a big fan of orchestrations as related to Web Services, and thus would not promote a definition that disallows them. URIs do not disallow orchestrations. > It seems to me that then you would have a > definition that > it would be easy to use to answer the question: "Is XYZ a web > service?" > without getting involved in difficult discussions like > whether the thing is > intended for machines or people, or people interacting > through machines, or > machines using people, or ... In web terms, a Web Service *is* defined by the fact that it evolves the Web beyond browser/web server interactions to true application-to-application interactions that do not directly involve humans. You can't define Web Services without addressing this key element. --steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sandeep Kumar [mailto:sandkuma@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:53 PM > To: Joseph Hui; Vinoski, Stephen > Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org > Subject: RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."] > > > I agree with Joe. > > A WS should be Discoverable (either by using standards based > protocols or > via an out-of-band information) and is Described using a > standards based > approach (what its capabilities are something that an API > captures, or a > service contract). In the case of the an Intermediary WS, it > does the same > thing and is well-understood and the description is implicit. > > Whether one WS trusts the WS description or not is a > different story (we > cannot solve the problem someone mentioned about opening a > flood-gate). > > Regards, > > Sandeep Kumar > sandeep.kumar@cisco.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org [mailto:www-ws-arch-request@w3.org]On > Behalf Of Joseph Hui > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:45 PM > To: Vinoski, Stephen > Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org > Subject: RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."] > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vinoski, Stephen [mailto:steve.vinoski@iona.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:06 PM > > To: Joseph Hui > > Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org > > Subject: RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."] > > > > I still have to agree with Mark that you're defining > requirements, not > > creating a web services definition. I suggest again, as > Mark did, that > > we work from the one that he and I put together. Is there something > > wrong with it? Is ti missing something? > > Suffice to say my response to Mark the other day also applies here. > > Per discussion on WS Def during today's telconf, I believe > D&D ought to be > in. > > Joe Hui > Exodus, a Cable & Wireless service > =============================================== > > > > --steve > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joseph Hui [mailto:jhui@digisle.net] > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:59 PM > > > To: www-ws-arch@w3.org > > > Subject: RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."] > > > > > > > > > > From: "Anne Thomas Manes" <anne@manes.net> > > > [snip] > > > > > > Hi Anne, > > > > > > > I'm a bit averse to using the terms MUST NOT, SHOULD, and MAY. > > > > > > They were tided over from IETF. Their virtue in > standards discourse > > > lies in the technical vigor as defined in RFC 2119. They > do tend to > > > stiffen up sentences, to the detriment of their literary > appeal. :-( > > > > > > > I'm not sure > > > > that we should impose the constraint defined by WSP04. > > > > > > WSP04 slams a door (a door, not all doors) at those who > have funny > > > ideas about hacking into a host via web services. It also takes > > > away a big rope (not all ropes, a rope nonetheless) that some > > > implementors/deployers may hang themselves by accident. > WSP04 pretty > > > much conveys "web services have a property of being hacker > > > unfriendly." (BTW, "safe" could supplant "hacker > unfriendly" with a > > > leaning toward generality.) > > > > > > > I think it's useful > > > > to include WSP05, although I don't think it's an essential > > > aspect of what > > > > makes a web service a web service. I'm ambiguous about WSP06. > > > > > > WSP06 may be thought of as a clause of self-preservation (or > > > robustness by agnosticism. ;-) > > > > > > > I think WSP07 goes into too much detail. > > > > > > Point well taken. Indeed we can do away with the > embellishment -- > > > the last phrase of the first sentence and the parenthesized text, > > > unless others object. > > > > > > > I think WSP08 gets too much into architecture, > > > > and isn't an essential aspect of what makes a web service a > > > web service. > > > > > > WSP08 is about D&D, which differentiates the web service > model from > > > the rest. That is, D&D is one of the properties that WS are made > > > of. > > > > > > [snip] > > > > One recommendation that I would make to Joseph's definition > > > is that we not > > > > call out any specific technologies (WSDL, UDDI, etc.) > in the core > > > > definition. Our architecture should provide > > recommendations on which > > > > technologies to use, not the definition. > > > > > > I can go along with not calling out specific > technologies, and also > > > to err on the side of generality (as opposed to specificity) if > > > that's the WG's consensus. As stated in a previous message, I'd > > > like to also reiterate my position that we should be as > specific as > > > feasible. > > > > > > > I'd also prefer to use the more generic term "contract" > > > rather than "well > > > > defined input/output parameters". > > > > > > "Contract" can mean different things to different folks > in WS. Thus > > > one has to be overtly conscious of the context when "contract" is > > > invoked. Right off the bat, XLang comes to mind. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Joe Hui > > > Exodus, a Cable & Wireless service > > > > > > > > > > > >
Received on Thursday, 28 February 2002 19:50:47 UTC