Minutes 3rd January 2002

Minutes Web Ontology Working Group Telecon 3rd January 2002


  **ACTIONS on all** to do with F2F see item 2.

  DECISION  The Web Ontology Lanuage will be called OWL

  ACTION Tim Finin:    Ping Stefan to ensure webservices doc moves forward.
  ACTION Jim Hendler:  Put Pat Hayes's model theory on reading list.
  ACTION Frank van Harmelen:  E-mail a URL to Pat's document.



SCRIBE: Jeremy Carroll

1) Administrivia

Roll Call:


Stephen Buswell,
Jeremy Carroll,
Dan Connolly,
Nicholas Gibbins,
Jeff Heflin
James Hendler,
Ziv Hellman,
Ian Horrocks,
Ruediger Klein,
Deborah McGuinness,
Leo Obsrt
Peter Patel-Schneider,
Marwan Sabbouh, (joined late)
Guus Schreiber,
Lynn Andrea Stein,
Frank van Harmelen,

Stefan Decker,
Libby Miller,
Enrico Motta,
Ned Smith,

Absent Alternates:
Frederik Brysse,
D.C. De Roure,
Natasha Kravtsova,
Michael Sintek,
Patrick Stickler,
Warner ten Kate,
Martin Pike,

James Barnette,
Einar Breen,
Jonathan Dale,
Jos De Roo,
Mike Dean
Dieter Fensel,
Tim Finin,
Pat Hayes,
Oisen Hurley,
Francesco Iannuzzelli,
Mario Jeckle,
Michael Kohlhase,
Ora Lassila,
Alexander Maedche,
Shimizu Noboru,
Michael Smith,
John Stanton,
Herman ter Horst,
Lynne R. Thompson,
David Trastour,
Laxman Venigalla,
Raphael Volz,

2: F2F Logisitics

  ACTIONS for all:
    Print out details page.
    Tell Peter if you are going to the banquet on Monday 14th.
    Tell Peter if you have changed your mind about attending F2F.
    Bring an ethernet cable or a wireless gold card.
    If at all possible arrive at rendezvous point in the morning.

3: Language name
  DECISION   The Web Ontology Lanuage will be called OWL

  Note: detailed actions related with this decision are postponed.

4: F2F Documents

  The subgroup documents are progressing. All appear to be at or near the
stage of subgroup review; and should be ready for the deadline of the 7th.

  Concerning the WebServices document, Stefan is currently very busy with
his PhD. Stefan sent regrets for this meeting but indicated progress.

  ACTION Tim Finin: Ping Stefan to ensure webservices doc moves forward.

  There is also the issue raised by Peter at:



  Peter indicated that the text (the 2nd URL above) is more-or-less finished
and ready for the pre F2F reading list.
  There was general agreement that the beginning of Pat Hayes's Model Theory
draft was a good introduction to model theory and should be on the reading

  ACTION Jim Hendler Put Pat Hayes's model theory on reading list.
  ACTION Frank van Harmelen E-mail a URL to Pat's document.

The meeting closed (with a long discussion about model theory).

Scribe's log follows (note: I lost connectivity briefly).

*** Opened channel log for #webont at 03/01/02 17.56.17
[17.56] *** jjc (jjc@ has joined #webont
[17.56] [jjc]	Hi Deborah, I am just testing my logging.
*** Closed channel log for #webont at 03/01/02 17.57.09
*** Opened channel log for #webont at 03/01/02 17.57.37
[17.57] *** jjc (jjc@ has joined #webont
[18.05] <DeborahMcGuinness>	ok - i just went away and came back
[18.06] *** nmg (~nmg@cerebus.ecs.soton.ac.uk) has joined #webont
[18.06] <nmg>	evening
[18.06] <DeborahMcGuinness>	morning
[18.07] *** jah-mac (~jah-mac@pool-138-88-47-119.res.east.verizon.net) has
joined #webont
[18.07] *** DanC (~connolly@adsl-64-216-155-222.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net) has
joined #webont
[18.07] <nmg>	ah, the joys of global telecoms...
[18.08] *** DanC has changed the topic on #webont to ":WebOnt3Jan :chair
:JimH; :scribe [a :Wanted]."
[18.08] *** lasDesk (las@ has joined #webont
[18.08] *** DanC has changed the topic on #webont to ":WebOnt3Jan :chair
:jah-mac; :scribe [a :Wanted]."
[18.08] *** heflin (heflin@dhcp14-114.eecs.lehigh.edu) has joined #webont
[18.09] <jah-mac>	jeremy carroll has vcolunteered to scribe.  I am having
phone problem - should be on soon (trunk busy)
[18.09] <DeborahMcGuinness>	i just found it:
[18.12] <jah-mac>	I cannot get into call - keep getting "all circuits are
busy" -- DanC can you call attendance and etc.  Will be in soon as I can get
a lint.
[18.13] <jah-mac>	s/lint/line
[18.13] <DanC>	I'm not in yet, jim
[18.13] *** DanC has changed the topic on #webont to ":WebOnt3Jan :chair
:JimH; :scribe :jjc."
[18.13] <jah-mac>	is anyone on the call yet?
[18.13] <lasDesk>	yes, a bunch of us are schmoozing
[18.14] <DanC>	17 on per http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html
[18.14] *** pfps (~pfps@ has joined #webont
[18.14]  * lasDesk wonders how to get Zakim to recognize my phone
[18.14] *** jjc is now known as jjcscribe
[18.15] *** dieter (dieter@node15ece.a2000.nl) has joined #webont
[18.15] <DanC>	=== roll call (cf
[18.16] [jjcscribe]	Barnette -
[18.16] [jjcscribe]	Breen -
[18.16] [jjcscribe]	Brysse alt
[18.16] [jjcscribe]	Buswell +
[18.16] [jjcscribe]	Carroll +
[18.16] [jjcscribe]	Conolly +
[18.16] <lasDesk>	jjcscribe:  I don' tthink you need to call roll here,
just note it on your own
[18.16] [jjcscribe]	Dale, De Roo, De Roure -
[18.16] <lasDesk>	then add it to the minutes
[18.16] [jjcscribe]	Dean -
[18.16] [jjcscribe]	Decker reg
[18.17] [jjcscribe]	Fensel Finin Gibboins +
[18.17] [jjcscribe]	Hayes -
[18.17] [jjcscribe]	Heflin +
[18.17] [jjcscribe]	Hendler Hellman Horrock +
[18.17] [jjcscribe]	Hurley -
[18.17] [jjcscribe]	Iannuzzelli -
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	Jeckle -
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	Klein +
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	Kohlhase -
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	Lassila
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	Maedche -
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	McG +
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	Miller Motta reg
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	Obsrt +
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	PS +
[18.18] [jjcscribe]	Pike (Alt)
[18.19] [jjcscribe]	Sabb -
[18.19] [jjcscribe]	Sch +
[18.19] [jjcscribe]	Shim -
[18.19] [jjcscribe]	Smith -
[18.19] <DanC>	and yes, there's a request for a forms-based attendance
tool; the so-called "slacker tracking system"; the disposition of the
request is uncertain, but it looks unlikely. Note that the WG membership is
available in RDF (under #Membership) if somebody wanted to hack something
[18.19] [jjcscribe]	Ed Smith reg
[18.19] [jjcscribe]	Stanton -
[18.19] [jjcscribe]	Stein +
[18.19] [jjcscribe]	Horst -
[18.19] *** IanH (~horrocks@host213-106-196-167.no-dns-yet.ntli.net) has
joined #webont
[18.19] [jjcscribe]	Thompson -
[18.20] [jjcscribe]	Trastour -
[18.20] [jjcscribe]	Harmlenb+
[18.20] [jjcscribe]	Venigalla Volz -
[18.20] <DanC>	today's agenda, for reference:
[18.21] [jjcscribe]	Please send Peter regrets if you are no longer going
[18.21] [jjcscribe]	Peter has 34 replies out of 39 members
[18.21] [jjcscribe]	Is Attendance information private or public
[18.22] [jjcscribe]	Who's attending is public
[18.22] *** JosD (nobody@un.impressive.net) has joined #webont
[18.22] [jjcscribe]	someone - prefer personal info not to be distributed
[18.22] <DanC>	peter's ftf info msg
[18.23] [jjcscribe]	Go to local arrangement page, and there is a details
[18.23] <DanC>	local host page
[18.23] [jjcscribe]	Do check details page - it shows where in the building
you must show up
[18.23] <DanC>	details page
[18.23] [jjcscribe]	You must show up at the time and place as indiicated
for PPS to let you in.
[18.23] <DanC>	everybody PRINT THE DETAILS PAGE
[18.23] [jjcscribe]	You cannot get in without escort.
[18.24] [jjcscribe]	If you cannot turn up at beginning of meeting you must
phone someone to come and get you.
[18.25] [jjcscribe]	Also possible to phone meeting room.
[18.25] [jjcscribe]	Peter wants responses for dinner on Monday night.
[18.26] [jjcscribe]	These need to be IMMEDIATE responses
[18.26] [jjcscribe]	Jim: please come to the dinner.
[18.27] [jjcscribe]	Peter: 3 people can connect to wired portion. People
with particular "gold" card can connect to wireless portion.
[18.27] [jjcscribe]	Peter: breakfast provided.
[18.27] <DanC>	sigh... my card is 40bit. I lose. I don't see why folks
bother with WEP; I assume my ethernet cables are sniffed; why not assume my
wvlan is sniffed?
[18.28] <DanC>	DanC plans to bring an ethernet hub
[18.28] [jjcscribe]	If anyone brings ethernet hub then people will be
[18.29] <DanC>	DanC plans to look into bringing a wireless access point.
[18.29] [jjcscribe]	Peter if someone brings a hub, each person will need a
[18.30] <DanC>	never mind: I don't plan to look into bringing a wireless
access point.
[18.30] [jjcscribe]	Peter - bringing a wireless hub does not work around
the 128 bit req.
[18.31] [jjcscribe]	Peter is looking into hubs.
[18.31] [jjcscribe]	Peter: if you want to go wired bring an ehternet
[18.31] [jjcscribe]	Agenda 3: Language Name
[18.31] <DanC>	====== Language name
[18.31] <DanC>	I second the OWL proposal
[18.32] [jjcscribe]	OWL, WOL, or SWOL
[18.32] [jjcscribe]	SWOL seems to be dying.
[18.33] [jjcscribe]	Issues as to whether OWL as english word will be hard
to searh on
[18.33] [jjcscribe]	SHOE is now top in google
[18.34] *** Server connection lost
[18.34] [jjcscribe]	OWL - is decided upon.
[18.35] [jjcscribe]	Can people see this message.
[18.35] Cycling the channel...
[18.36] [jjcscribe]	decision OWL is the name of the web ontology lanaguage
[18.36] Cycling the channel...
[18.37] *** jjc (jjc@ has joined #webont
[18.37] *** Topic is: :WebOnt3Jan :chair :JimH; :scribe :jjc.
[18.37] *** Topic set by DanC on gio gen 3 6.05 
[18.37] [jjc]	can people see this message?
[18.37] [jjc]	defer further actions
[18.37] <heflin>	yes, I can see it
[18.37] [jjc]	thanks
[18.37] <nmg>	jjc: yes
[18.38] [jjc]	another test
[18.39] *** jjc is now known as jjcscribe
[18.39] *** jjcscribe is now known as jjcsribe2
[18.39] <DanC>	hi jjcsribe2
[18.39] *** jjcsribe2 is now known as jjcscribe
[18.39] *** danbri_ (~danbri@h0050ba016e0d.ne.mediaone.net) has joined
[18.39] <DanC>	replay:
[18.39] <DanC>	<jah-mac> RESOLVED: We will call the language OWL (Ontology
Web Language)
[18.39] [jjcscribe]	There was an OWL in the eighties but doesn't seem to
be probelmatic
[18.39] <DeborahMcGuinness>
http://medg.lcs.mit.edu/people/psz/OWL_overview1.html  is a pointer to owl -
a language for knowledge representation
[18.39] [jjcscribe]	Agenda 4 - status of various docs
[18.40] [jjcscribe]	Decker not attending
[18.40] [jjcscribe]	Decker's doc is progressing
[18.41] [jjcscribe]	No pointer to current version of Decker's doc
[18.41] <DanC>	(13 Draft is linked from group home page)
[18.41] [jjcscribe]	Leo:
[18.41] [jjcscribe]	We should be done by the 7th
[18.41] [jjcscribe]	Main thing still being done is condesnation to under
10 pp
[18.42] [jjcscribe]	Backup use case is 26 pp
[18.42]  * DanC takes another call for a moment... brb...
[18.42] [jjcscribe]	Being reduced to slightly more general use cases that
specific use cases map into
[18.42]  * DanC returns
[18.43] <DanC>	"underneath..." where are we? what page are we looking at?
[18.43] [jjcscribe]	No URL at the moment
[18.43] [jjcscribe]	Prelim version will be sent to subgorupu maybe today.
[18.44] [jjcscribe]	To full group maybe on Monday.
[18.45] [jjcscribe]	Jim: remember that we want to get to lang. reqs.
[18.45] [jjcscribe]	Josh:
[18.46] [jjcscribe]	I have some examples, but won't them all in before the
[18.46] [jjcscribe]	Default values come up
[18.46] [jjcscribe]	We have quite a good set.
[18.47] <jah-mac>	s/Josh/Guus
[18.47] [jjcscribe]	Part/whole relationships also keeps coming up.
[18.47] [jjcscribe]	(thanks).
[18.47] <DanC>	part/whole... yes... that's come up in my work a lot. I was
tempted to confuse part/whole with class/instance; glad I didn't. i.e.
membership in a group is *not* a subproperty of rdf:type.
[18.47] [jjcscribe]	Pref-final version tomorrow, final version on Monday.
[18.48] [jjcscribe]	Draft doc under review in general requirements
[18.48] [jjcscribe]	Doc has 10 different requirements, each with short
[18.48] [jjcscribe]	justification, possible approach,
[18.49] [jjcscribe]	how this req is supported in daml.
[18.50] [jjcscribe]	(Jeff is reporting general reqs?)
[18.51] [jjcscribe]	Part/whole, default values are not in general reqs.
[18.51] [jjcscribe]	Which things come up in RDFS and which in DAML+OIL?
[18.51] <DanC>	"doesn't mean anything?" "no reasoning in RDFS"? hmm...
[18.52] <DeborahMcGuinness>	yes - the fourth group co-chaired by jeff and
me is general requirements
[18.52] <DanC>	indeed, no concept of transitivity in RDFS. (how is inverse
[18.53] <DanC>	jeremy, use case groups are indexed at
[18.53] [jjcscribe]	GenReq will meet deadline.
[18.53] <DanC>	7Jan that is
[18.54] [jjcscribe]	ACTION Tim Finin to ping stefan to ensure webservices
doc moves forward.
[18.54] [jjcscribe]	Jim: lets find overlap and synergy
[18.55] [jjcscribe]	Jim: it will be nice if the use cases motivate OWL
[18.56] [jjcscribe]	Last topic:
[18.56] *** lasDesk1 (las@ has joined #webont
[18.57] <DanC>	========
[18.57] <nmg>
[18.57] [jjcscribe]	Peter's doc is in fine shape.
[18.57] [jjcscribe]
[18.57] *** lasDesk (las@ has left IRC [Read error: 104
(Connection reset by peer)]
[18.58] <DanC>	on the group home page: *
[18.58] <DanC>	    * Cleaning up DAML+OIL, Peter F. Patel-Schneider
(syntax 14Dec, RDFS 14Dec)
[18.59] <DanC>	nmg, what is that (...005...) a pointer to?
[18.59] [jjcscribe]
[18.59] <nmg>	Sorry, that was the URI for Frank's layering mail
[18.59] <jah-mac>
[18.59] <DeborahMcGuinness>
[18.59] <DanC>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2001Dec/0156.html UPDATE:
new, combined document for SWOL
[18.59] <DanC>	From: Peter F. Patel-Schneider
[18.59] <DanC>	Date: Thu, Dec 20 2001
[19.03] [jjcscribe]	Discussion comes down to: are RDF inferences a subset
of OWL inferences?
[19.03] *** JosD (nobody@un.impressive.net) has left IRC [Remote closed
the connection]
[19.03] <DanC>	"if you take that point of view, you have a problem
[19.03] <DanC>	"if you take that point of view, you have a problem" --
Frank vH. JJC, are you following this?
[19.04] [jjcscribe]	(Not well enough to scribe it!)
[19.04] [jjcscribe]	Frank; 3rd way out - don't use RDF for writing down
[19.05] <DanC>	sigh... the whole point of the semantic web (to me, at
least) is to collapse the layers.
[19.06] <DanC>	partial understanding is critical; the idea that you use
one syntax for ontologies and another for instances would make this very
uninteresting, to me.
[19.06] [jjcscribe]	In 3rd way, some parts of XML doc are RDF, other parts
are not.
[19.06] [jjcscribe]	RDF parser would pick out instance data
[19.08] [jjcscribe]	PPS: John belongs to intersetcion of person and
student does not entail
[19.09] [jjcscribe]	John belongs to intersection pof student and person
[19.09] [jjcscribe]	Why not?
[19.09] [jjcscribe]	Because ...
[19.10] [jjcscribe]	there are models in which intersection of student an
dperson doesn't exist
[19.12] [jjcscribe]	Peter: problem is syntactic structures don't eist yet
for the student and person
[19.13] <lasDesk1>	Consider my hand raised.
[19.13] [jjcscribe]	and mine
[19.13] [jjcscribe]	In DAML specs do all lists exists?
[19.13] [jjcscribe]	We could agree all LIsts to exist
[19.13] [jjcscribe]	(Dan?) then the inference will work out
[19.14] [jjcscribe]	Peter we may end up with inconsistent axioms
[19.14] [jjcscribe]	Peter we can't check whether our axioms are
[19.14] *** timfinin (finin@ecs207pc-01.cs.umbc.edu) has joined #webont
[19.17] [jjcscribe]	Deb: we must deal with inconsistent info
[19.17] [jjcscribe]	Deb: we must also deal with incomplete info
[19.17] [jjcscribe]	This example seems to be an instance of incomplete
[19.18] [jjcscribe]	Ian: we can treat RDF as syntax and ignore semantics
[19.23] [jjcscribe]	JimH: Peter will submit current doc
[19.26] [jjcscribe]
[19.26] [jjcscribe]	(Pat Hayes Model Theory)
[19.26] <jah-mac>	ACTION: Frank will EMAIL URI for Pat Hayes Model Theory
to the webont WG nailing list
[19.26] [jjcscribe]	Pat's paper does give justification for why MT is
[19.27] <lasDesk1>	Are we going to expect that everyone at the f2f has
read Pat's model theory intro?
[19.27] <lasDesk1>	http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/
[19.28] <DanC>	frap; if RDFCore WG wants webont to look at something other
than the one on /TR/, they should publish it on /TR/. sigh.
[19.28] <DanC>	we can't have the proceedings of W3C ftf meetings on
[19.28] [jjcscribe]	Sorry that was the decsion - mainly due to time
[19.31] <DanC>	lasDesk1, pfps, what worked in the RDF Core WG was
play-acting a model theory. we had the syntax on a whiteboard and the object
in the model in the room.
[19.31] <DanC>	I think there are pictures... hang on...
[19.32] [jjcscribe]	Can we prioritise reading list please?
[19.33] [jjcscribe]	XMLQuery - queried
[19.33] <lasDesk1>	On Monday (or whenever the deadline is), can someone
please email a list of everything we're supposed to read, prioritized?  I
feel like there are multiple versions of these lists.....
[19.34] [jjcscribe]	Jim: try hard to make good examples
[19.34] <DanC>	oops; that was a list I think I need to do something about
[19.35] <DanC>	jah-mac, action me to put path's model theory on the
reading list?
[19.36] <DanC>	jah-mac, re speaker's assumptions, this is a real risk. One
thing you, as chair, can do to manage it is to schedule frequent breaks.
[19.38] <DanC>	do we need to review the charter at the ftf? the charter
calls for a formal semantics. by joining this group, folks signed up for the
[19.39] <DanC>	oops; I neglected to get Web Architecture Overview on the
ftf agenda.
[19.39] <DanC>	e.g. in the airports excercise, PatH had some questions
about URIs that I'd like to answer in a presentation.
[19.40] [jjcscribe]	next weeks meeting may be cancelled.
[19.40] [jjcscribe]	Meeting now closed.
[19.40] *** timfinin (finin@ecs207pc-01.cs.umbc.edu) has left #webont
[19.41] *** nmg (~nmg@cerebus.ecs.soton.ac.uk) has left #webont ["Client
[19.41] *** IanH (~horrocks@host213-106-196-167.no-dns-yet.ntli.net) has
left IRC ["[x]chat"]
[19.41] *** DeborahMcGuinness (dlm@Mcguiness-pbdsl2.Stanford.EDU) has left
IRC []
[19.42] <DanC>	yes, lynn, the reading list will go out by email on or
about 7Jan.
[19.44] *** heflin (heflin@dhcp14-114.eecs.lehigh.edu) has left IRC []
[19.45] *** jah-mac (~jah-mac@pool-138-88-47-119.res.east.verizon.net) has
left #webont
[19.52] *** jah-mac (~jah-mac@pool-138-88-47-119.res.east.verizon.net) has
joined #webont
*** Closed channel log for #webont at 03/01/02 19.56.38

Received on Friday, 4 January 2002 05:37:55 UTC