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Draft Minutes for the June 17 Telcon

From: ashok malhotra <ashok.malhotra@oracle.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:24:56 -0700
Message-ID: <4C1B9DD8.1040703@oracle.com>
To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
Draft minutes for the June 17 telcon are available at: 
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/06/17-minutes.html
and as text below:

 [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

              Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

17 Jun 2010

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/06/17-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Tim Berners-Lee, Noah Mendelsohn, Ashok Malhotra, Jonathan
          Rees, Henry Thompson, Yves Lafon, T.V. Raman

   Regrets
          John Kemp, Daniel Appelquist

   Chair
          Noah Mendelsohn

   Scribe
          Ashok Malhotra

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]ISSUE-1 (w3cMediaType-1): Media types in Web
            architecture
         3. [7]ISSUE-24 (contentTypeOverride-24): Media Type Sniffing
         4. [8]ISSUE-27 (IRIEverywhere-27): Announcing IRI Everywhere
         5. [9]Pending Review Action Items
     * [10]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 17 June 2010

   <scribe> meeting: TAG

   <scribe> scribenick: Ashok

   <scribe> scribe: Ashok Malhotra

Convene

   Noah: I will be available next week but not the following 2 weeks.
   So, I want to cancel the mtgs for July 1 and July 8
   ... I will send mail re. summer calls
   ... HT can you scribe next week?

   ht: Yes, subject to usual constraints

   <noah> Henry will scribe next week

   Noah: Larry, we are still waiting for minutes from May 27, correct?

   Larry: Yes

   Noah: f2f minutes need to be approved. Let's do it next week.

   <jar> Still looking at f2f minutes

   Noah: I'm working with Raman on hosting October mtg

   <noah> NM: Summarizes Raman's concerns about F2F scheduling

   <noah> HT: Endorses sense of Noah's reply... F2F meetings are
   useful, this one is good

ISSUE-1 (w3cMediaType-1): Media types in Web architecture

   Larry: I updated the note a bit.
   ... The docs we reference are a bit incomplete
   ... I got a positive review from Ned Freed and Graham Klyne.

   <noah> HT: The one we reviewed at the F2F was the blog post
   ([11]http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/06/mime-and-web.html)

     [11] http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/06/mime-and-web.html)

   Larry: more to be said on registering MIME types
   ... affects a lot of issues
   ... version indicators, sniffing and whether metadata is
   authoritative
   ... language of this doc does not talk about licences or authority
   ... need a clearer statement of what MIME means and how to use it on
   the Web
   ... 2 opportunities
   ... 1) work with Ned and Graham to update MIME doc and MIME
   registration procedures
   ... would be really helpful
   ... 2) proposal for new IETF WG -- HTTP Application Security to be
   discussed in mtg late July

   <ht> HASMAT

   <Yves> I gave a pointer to the HASMAT BOF at next IETF during the
   f2f

   Noah: Thank you, Larry ... very helpful

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to mention override

   HT: Very valuable... uptake from IETF very encouraging
   ... need to add section on overriding media-types

   <timbl__> Examples?

   <timbl__> VXML? HTML5?

   <jar> Link: header has 'type' feature relating to Content-type...
   but it means "you might expect to get something of this type" I
   think (should check)

   <jar> so maybe not a problem

   HT: regardless of response you get use this media-type or if there
   is no media-type specified use this media-type

   <ht> XInclude, xml-stylesheet PI, XProc

   <noah> From RFC 2616:

   <noah> If and only if the media type is not given by a Content-Type
   field, the recipient MAY attempt to guess the media type via
   inspection of its content and/or the name extension(s) of the URI
   used to identify the resource.

   Larry: There were some concrete suggestions for spec to be updated
   at the end of the BOF

   <Yves> see also
   [12]http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-09#sect
   ion-3.2.1

     [12] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-09#section-3.2.1

   Larry: If you have out-of-band info about media-type you shd use
   that in an Accept Header

   Noah: Would you update 2616 ?

   <ht> Guys, remember that HTTP-bis is underway and it _is_ updating
   2616

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to explain the XInclude example

   HT: I will explain the XInclude case and I hope you will agree it
   does the right thing

   <jar> (
   [13]http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-10
   sec. 5.4 "this is only a hint" )

     [13] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-10

   HT: I'm ignoring media type and doing something different because
   that's what the includer wants

   Tim: When you break the level of abstraction you are on dangerous
   ground and user shd be warned

   Larry: If you say it says it's XML but I will treat as plain text

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to say I hear Tim agreeing with me that doing
   this has to be called out for special discussion

   ht: I agree with Tim ... a new doc about media-types shd say
   something about this kind of behaviour and it shd say what Tim said
   ... be careful when breaking levels of abstraction
   ... The efficient XML encoding is not an encoding ... tells you how
   to build an infoset but not a content encoding

   <Yves> that's why EXI can't be used as a Transfer-Encoding (and it
   is marked that way in the IANA registry)

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to say: I think Larry's example exposes why
   we treated doing EXI as a content-encoding

   Larry: You also want to think abt overriding the character encoding

   <ht> [14]http://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/#text-included-items

     [14] http://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/#text-included-items

   <Zakim> timbl__, you wanted to talk about breaking levels for
   example accessing the character sequence

   Noah: It would be very different for XInclude to say: ignore the
   content type, use this as opposed to check if media type is within
   this bounde range and then play the level-breaking tricks

   <noah> Noah: specifically, the XML media type says that what you get
   >is< characters, so treating your information as such isn't ignoring
   the media type

   Tim: Gives examples of level-breaking

   Noah: Let's talk abt how to cooperate with IETF

   Larry: My time is limited... can someone else do this?

   Noah: If we pick this back up in Sept will we have lost an
   opportunity?

   <noah> Maastricht is late July?

   Larry: Would be good to weigh in on HASMAT

   <noah> YL: Likely scope of HASMAT work is much broader than media
   types & sniffing. I will be there and can convey messages.

   Larry: Please make suggestion

   YL: I don't see a lot of interest in IETF to work on the specs ... I
   think it's very important

   Noah: Shd Yves take an action to gather a TAG position on how to
   handle this and then represent us in Maastricht?
   ... Larry can you work on this the next week?

   <masinter> yes

   <noah> . ACTION Yves to coordinate TAG positions on media type
   related work with IETF, and to represent TAG at IETF meetings in
   Mastricht

   <noah> ACTION Yves to coordinate TAG positions on media type related
   work with IETF, and to represent TAG at IETF meetings in Mastricht
   Due: 2010-07-20

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-447 - Coordinate TAG positions on media
   type related work with IETF, and to represent TAG at IETF meetings
   in Mastricht Due: 2010-07-20 [on Yves Lafon - due 2010-06-24].

   <noah> ACTION-447 Due 2010-07-20

   <trackbot> ACTION-447 Coordinate TAG positions on media type related
   work with IETF, and to represent TAG at IETF meetings in Mastricht
   Due: 2010-07-20 due date now 2010-07-20

   <noah> From 9 June 2010 F2F discussion: RESOLUTION: HST to send the
   contents of
   [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Jun/0014.html to
   ietf-http-wg, cced to public-html and www-tag, with minor fixes
   given above

     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Jun/0014.html

   Noah: Originates from Action-387

ISSUE-24 (contentTypeOverride-24): Media Type Sniffing

   <noah> Response from Mark Nottingham:
   [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0097.html

     [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0097.html

   <noah> HT: I still prefer what Yves wrote, but they've responded,
   and we should thank them and move on.

   HT: ... we got some of what we wanted

   <noah> From the response from Mark:

   <noah> In practice, currently-deployed servers sometime provide a
   Content-Type header which does not correctly convey the intended
   interpretation of the content sent, with the result that some
   clients will examine the response body's content and override the
   specified type.

   Yves: The new text was more in line with ... explains motivation for
   changes ... security breaches

   Noah: I have trouble with -- with the result that some clients will
   examine the response body's content and override the specified type.
   ... perhaps this is minor

   HT: Not worth bothering with this

   Noah: Henry can you send thanks?

   HT: Yes

   <noah> close ACTION-387

   <trackbot> ACTION-387 Review JK/NM's stuff on sniffing,
   authoritative metadata, self-describing web, incl.
   [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0025.html
   closed

     [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jan/0025.html

ISSUE-27 (IRIEverywhere-27): Announcing IRI Everywhere

   Noah: Do you want to discuss this? Next step in announcing IRI
   everywhere

   Larry: Some movement in IETF in unifying IRI
   ... I cannot separate the politics from the technical substance

   <noah> I want to be sure we're getting the technical details of what
   Larry is saying...do we need to pause for the scribe?

   <masinter> there are several technical issues that need to be worked
   somewhere

   larry: Several technical issues

   <masinter> the most important is around IDNA and domain names

   <masinter> because IDNA doesn't use hex-encoded UTF8 but rahter
   punicode

   <masinter> Internationalization of Domain Names for Applications

   <masinter> second around BIDI

   Noah: What shd be TAG's role?
   ... Shall we close the action?

   <masinter> suggest closing this action, leaving issue open

   <noah> OK

   <jar> Larry's plan for closing the issue:
   [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Mar/0037.html

     [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Mar/0037.html

   Noah: I will not schedule discussion unless someone asks?

   <ht> close ACTION-370

   <trackbot> ACTION-370 HST to send a revised-as-amended version of
   [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0068.html to
   the HTTP bis list on behalf of the TAG closed

     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0068.html

   Raman: Has anyone else read the msg from Adam Barth?
   ... it's a question of layering of specs
   ... URI spec tells you how a URI is written and interpreted
   ... if you think abt which spec goes first
   ... how the byte stream is interpreted

   <masinter> hard to separate logistics issues from technical issues,
   but the technical issues need to be worked, independently of where.
   IDNA, BIDI presentation, and several others.

   Noah: Closing the action is consistent with your advice

   Raman: I suggest the TAG read Adam Barth's note and then we can
   discuss

   <noah> Adam Barth's message:
   [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.htm
   l

     [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html

   Noah: I will not schedule discussion unless someone asks

   <masinter> Adam's message focuses on the logistical approach, but
   I'm afraid that the layering isn't actually appropriate, doesn't
   match how anyone implements IRIs today

   HT: Pl. read Adam's msg and let's discuss next week

   <noah> . ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of
   [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.htm
   l on 24 June

     [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of
   [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.htm
   l on 24 June [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/06/17-minutes#action01]

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html
     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/06/17-minutes#action01

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-448 - Schedule discussion of
   [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.htm
   l on 24 June [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-06-24].

     [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html

   <noah> close ACTION-411

   <trackbot> ACTION-411 Take the next step on announcing IRIEverywhere
   closed

Pending Review Action Items

   Raman: I will send confirmation of f2f to list

   Noah: I would like to close ACTION 403

   <noah> I think Dan's note
   [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0038.html
   resolves it.

     [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0038.html

   <noah> close ACTION-403

   <trackbot> ACTION-403 Ensure that TAG responds to Murata Makoto's
   request for RelaxNG Schemas for XHTML (self-assigned) closed

   <masinter> action-425?

   <trackbot> ACTION-425 -- Larry Masinter to draft updated MIME
   finding(s), with help from DanA, based on www-tag discussion -- due
   2010-05-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/425

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/425

   Noah: Larry shd we close 425?

   <noah> close ACTION-425

   <trackbot> ACTION-425 Draft updated MIME finding(s), with help from
   DanA, based on www-tag discussion closed

   <masinter> the MIME update should cover more about fragment
   identifiers

   <noah> Noah has permission to close 441 after sending note.

   Noah: Sent note re. frag-id. Got supportive reply from Jonathan. If
   I don't hear I will send note in a couple of days.

   <Yves> I agree with Larry that mime reg form is missing fragment
   handling

   <jar> issue-1?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types?
   -- pending review

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1

   Larry: Wondering if MIME-type stuff shd be opened as an issue

   <noah> ISSUE-9?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-9 -- Why does the Web use mime types and not URIs?
   -- closed

   <trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/9

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/9

   <noah> ISSUE-3?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-3 -- Relationship between media types and
   namespaces? -- closed

   <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/3

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/3

   <noah> w3cMediaType-1 : Should W3C WGs define their own media types?

   Noah: We have a couple of closed issues that are related ... see
   above

   <noah> ISSUE-1?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types?
   -- pending review

   <trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1

   Noah: Larry do you still think we need a new issue?

   jar: Looks like a new issue to me

   <jar> . OK, but *how* should W3C WGs define their own media types?

   Noah: Text for new issue?

   <noah> Mime & Web?

   Larry: MIME and Web

   Noah: Actually, MIME-types?

   <noah> Use of MIME with the Web?

   <noah> for the Web?

   <noah> ISSUE: The role of MIME in the Web Architecture

   <trackbot> Created ISSUE-66 - The role of MIME in the Web
   Architecture ; please complete additional details at
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66/edit .

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66/edit

   <noah> Shortname: mimeAndWeb-55

   <noah> Make sure use of MIME capabilities, typing, etc. in Web
   architecture is appropriate, and coordinate with IETF.

   <noah> [32]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66

   <noah> ISSUE-66?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-66 -- The role of MIME in the Web Architecture --
   open

   <trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66

   Noah: We will have a call next week
   ... and after that not for two weeks

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of
   [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.htm
   l on 24 June [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/06/17-minutes#action01]

     [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html
     [35] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/06/17-minutes#action01

   [End of minutes]
Received on Friday, 18 June 2010 16:27:13 UTC

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