- From: Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol) <skw@hp.com>
- Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:12:08 +0100
- To: "Technical Architecture Group WG" <www-tag@w3.org>
Draft minutes of the TAG's Telcon on 4th Oct 2008 are available for
review at:
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes
and as plain text below.
Regard
Stuart Williams
--
Hewlett-Packard Limited
Registered Office: Cain Road, Bracknell, Berks RG12 1HN
Registered No: 690597 England
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
- DRAFT -
TAG
4 Oct 2007
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-agenda
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-tagmem-irc
Attendees
Present
Stuart, Rhys, Norm, Ht, Dave_Orchard, DanC, TimBL
Regrets
Raman, Noah
Chair
Stuart
Scribe
Dave
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]February f2f
2. [6]Approval of minutes.
3. [7]Tech-Plenary panel URI-Based Extensibility: Benefits,
Deviations, Lessons-Learned
4. [8]Draft summary of report to AC
5. [9]Issue binaryXML-30 (ISSUE-30) re scheduling for tech
plenary
6. [10]Issue XMLVersioning-41 (ISSUE-41)
7. [11]Mobile Ajax Workshop
* [12]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<scribe> Scribe: Dave
<scribe> ScribeNick: dorchard
<Norm> Agenda: [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-agenda
[13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-agenda
February f2f
<Stuart> [14]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34270/200802-F2F/results
[14] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34270/200802-F2F/results
<DanC> (I just updated action due dates; if
[15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ shows an overdue action,
please give a new ETA)
[15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
proposal: tag meet in vancouver for 2 1/2 to 3 days, Feb 25-28th
2008
... tag meet in vancouver for 2 1/2 to 3 days, Feb 26-28th 2008
<DanC> +1
<DanC> so RESOLVED.
RESOLUTION: TAG meet in vancouver for 2 1/2 to 3 days Feb 26-28th
2008
<DanC> (skw has an action to follow up on tim's schedule. ACTION-61
continues.)
TimBL: meeting starts at 9am on Feb 26?
SKW: yes
Discussion of possible local venues
<DanC> yes, let's meet within an hour of YVR
<timbl_> I woudl travel on Fri
<Rhys> I would travel Friday too
<ht> Last same-day flight appears to be 1330 departure, via Chicago
on United
<DanC> Rhys to scribe 11 Oct
Next meeting Oct 11th
<Stuart> [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda
[16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda
Rhys to scribe
<ht> So I don't think leaving Thursday departure gives us 2.5 days
for Noah/TimBL
proposal: meet for full 3 days
RESOLUTION: full 3 days, Feb 26-28th
Approval of minutes.
RESOLUTION: F2F of Sept 19th etc. approved
[17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html and
[18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html and
[19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/19-tagmem-minutes.html with
summary [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda
[17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html
[18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html
[19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/19-tagmem-minutes.html
[20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda
RESOLUTION: Minutes of September 27th approved.
[21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/27-minutes
[21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/27-minutes
Tech-Plenary panel URI-Based Extensibility: Benefits, Deviations,
Lessons-Learned
DO: some panelists have accepted, some thinking it over...
[22]http://microformats.org/wiki/misconceptions
[22] http://microformats.org/wiki/misconceptions
[23]http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2007/09/28/microformats_and_ur
i_based_extensibility
[23]
http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2007/09/28/microformats_and_uri_based_
extensibility
danc: if popular tools required @profile usage.
timbl: how about writing a microformat validator that checks the
@profile?
... it could report "you don't have a valid microformat" how about
adding the @profile..
Draft summary of report to AC
<Stuart> [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/Summary-Nov07
[24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/Summary-Nov07
stuart: feedback?
report has issues list management section... more on that.
what URI is "right" for issue 14?
<scribe> ACTION: Stuart update [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues
to say "this is old; see [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
" [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes#action01]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues
[26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
[27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes#action01
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-62 - Update
[28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues to say \"this is old; see
[29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ \" on Stuart Williams -
due 2007-10-11].
[28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues
[29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
TimBL: can we add links back? or both ways?
DanC: any of us can add a note in the new system to point to the old
entry. that suffices, for my purposes. Yes, Dom could do it
programmatically, but it seems to me that it if it matters, one of
us can do it ad-hoc.
Issue binaryXML-30 (ISSUE-30) re scheduling for tech plenary
timbl: it was talked about by tech plenary planning committee but it
didn't make the cut..
ht: michael smcq will attend exi
... people could say EXI begins with an xml declaration, and then
some more that I couldn't captcha
... the TAG set a bar, and if the TAG won't follow up who will?
<DanC> [30]http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/
[30] http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/
danc: looked but couldn't find the TAG's note on setting the bar.
<DanC>
[31]http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/#Ax-detai
ls-compaction
[31]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/#Ax-details-compa
ction
<DanC> (reviewing records...
[32]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#binaryXML-30 )
[32] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#binaryXML-30
<DanC> (deferred on 12 May 2004 ...)
<DanC> (ah... # TAG opinion on XML Binary Format , 24 May 2005. ...
[33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005May/0044 )
[33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005May/0044
the 4th chart compaction: "both" application class looks to show
that gzip is way worse than exi on the low end
<DanC> hmm... "6. Summary and Analysis of Test Results"
[34]http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/#results
[34]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/#results
I didn't find that there was enough "middle" analysis between the
detail and the summary that "exi is great".
<DanC> [35]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005May/0044
[35] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005May/0044
<DanC> For example, a target might be that "in
<DanC> typical web services scenarios, median speed gains on the
order of 3x in
<DanC> combined parsing and deserialization are deemed sufficient to
justify a
<DanC> new format."
DanC: the combination of a use case and hard numbers in one sentence
would be particularly handy
... some mobile folks have indicated there is a bar, say 7 times
smaller, that means it could ship in a handset
... I'd like to get the real numbers from the mobile community
stuart: have exi met the bar the tag set?
they may have met it but I can't tell.
<DanC> (we might be reading too quickly, but the typical W3C tech
report reader is likely to have even less attention span than the
average tag member)
<timbl_> I would like a scatter-plot of gzip vs efx
rhys: we could ask them whether they have met the bar?
in general, the tag doesn't seem sure.
<timbl_> They decided not to put an initial 4 cvhaarectyers on e
file format for eg the unix 'file' command as it would add 4 bytes
<timbl_> So they are not likely to add am encoding stirng
ht: in constrained environment, start with exi and fail over to xml
rather than start with xml and fail over to exi
timbl: you could vector on the "2 bytes" they start with
... first byte is between 80 and DS then they know it's binary
... can vector between with a single instruction
ht: when the 2 parties are well synched, that raw binary xml is
perfectly acceptable.
... binary xml should start with an xml declaration that says the
exi encoding
... and then xml spec says that xml declaration can be omitted if
both parties "know" what the encoding is
timbl: everybody needs to change their processors to accept binary
xml without any external labelling?
ht: if they specify it the way i suggested, then the door is open
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note that the SVG case is interesting,
in that .svgz is widely deployed
ht: if lots of people started wanting shift-JIS, then people would
add that encoding with no change to xml
danc: note that the SVG case is interesting, in that .svgz is widely
deployed
... I wonder why svg thinks about exi?
stuart: our own next step?
dorchard: i can look at the end of October.
<Rhys> Rhys just notes that mobile networks sometimes silently
compress materials on the way to the device
<scribe> ACTION: dorchard to review EXI measurements against the TAG
bar, due Oct 31st [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes#action02]
[36] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes#action02
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-63 - Review EXI measurements against
the TAG bar, due Oct 31st [on David Orchard - due 2007-10-11].
<DanC> i.e. review
[37]http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/ vs
[38]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005May/0044
[37] http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-exi-measurements-20070725/
[38] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005May/0044
Issue XMLVersioning-41 (ISSUE-41)
ht change action 48 to Oct 11th
<DanC> ACTION-38 now due 18 Oct
[39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0021.html
[39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0021.html
<DanC> on story...
[40]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0021.html
[40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0021.html
my phone just gave low battery warning
<ht> At its best, this is the TAG equivalent of " 'Snow is white' is
true just in case 'snow' is 'white' "
<ht> That is, it's a statement that what the world understands as
extensibility is a good thing, using our careful definition of
extensibility
Discussion of first bullet, specify that the language is extensible.
<Stuart> "...provide clear extensibility points in the design of
your language." ?
danc: one way of thinking about this is "if you are designing a
language for a distributed environement provide extensibility"
<DanC> If you're desigining a language for use between parties in a
distributed system, think about extensibility
<DanC> ok, I'd like the bullet points to stand alone... so...
<DanC> * to enable forwards compability, start with an extensible
syntax
json isn't worried about compatible versioning so they don't need
extensibility
<Stuart> "If you anticipate future variation in your language,
provide clear extensibility points in the design of your language."?
I had worried about defining distributed
we've gradually stripped out the motivation material to do just the
"what you need to do"
<timbl_> FYI, on magic numbers: less /usr/share/file/magic
DanC: Re: ACTION-38, I declare victory on my action item.
stuart: Will keep as "pending review" in order to schedule future
discussion.
ht: Re: ACTION-48, aiming to have a new draft of xhtml
modularization using subst groups ready for next week
<DanC> not for discussion next week
Mobile Ajax Workshop
<DanC>
[41]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0022.html
[41] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0022.html
<DanC> [42]http://www.w3.org/2007/09/28-mobile-ajax-minutes.html
[42] http://www.w3.org/2007/09/28-mobile-ajax-minutes.html
rhys: goes through the minutes
... w3c and openajax may have lists of things to work on..
... ibm had a solution in the client space, some level of secure
interaction. Dave Raggett may be looking at a workshop on security
aspects
... the IBM solution has to deal with secure communication between
parts of the app
relationship between frames, script
rhys: it's a sandboxing solution.
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note Ian Hickson on 21 Sep "proposal for
offline web app API "
[43]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0445.htm
l
[43]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0445.html
ht: there are 3 or 4 different offline web app APIs
danc: exactly. He's trying to standardize
meeting adjourned
how about that for timing of my phone battery dying!
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: dorchard to review EXI measurements against the TAG
bar, due Oct 31st [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Stuart update [45]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues to
say "this is old; see [46]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ "
[recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes#action01]
[44] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes#action02
[45] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues
[46] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
[47] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes#action01
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Received on Tuesday, 9 October 2007 16:12:38 UTC