- From: Ian B. Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
- Date: 07 Jul 2003 19:43:02 -0400
- To: www-tag@w3.org
Hello,
The minutes of the TAG's 7 July 2003 teleconf are available
as HTML [1] and as text below.
- Ian
[1] http://www.w3.org/2003/07/07-tag-summary.html
============================================================
Minutes of 7 July 2003 TAG teleconference
Nearby: [4]IRC log | |[5]Teleconference details · [6]issues list ·
[7]www-tag archive
[4] http://www.w3.org/2003/07/07-tagmem-irc.html
[5] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/#remote
[6] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist
[7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/
1. Administrative
1. Roll call: SW (Chair), DC, DO, NW, TB, IJ (Scribe). For the
discussion about contentTypeOverride-24, Jerry Carter from the
Voice WG attended. Regrets: TBL, RF, PC. Missing: CL
2. Tentatively accepted minutes of [8]30 Jun teleconference with
changes requested by Chris Lilley. Awaiting confirmation from
Chris Lilley.
3. Accepted this [9]agenda
4. Next meeting: 14 July. Likely regrets: NW.
5. Face-to-face meeting agenda
SW: I count on having an agenda for the TAG by next week.
[8] http://www.w3.org/2003/06/30-tag-summary.html
[9] http://www.w3.org/2003/07/07-tag.html
2. Technical
1. [10]Review of text from Voice Browser Working Group and finding
(contentTypeOverride-24)
2. [11]Review of comments on finding for whenToUseGet-7
3. [12]TAG comments on SW draft of finding for issue metadataInURI-31
[12] http://www.w3.org/2003/07/07-tag-summary.html
2.1 Review of text from Voice Browser Working Group (contentTypeOverride-24)
* [13]contentTypeOverride-24
+ [14]Speech Recognition Grammar Specification Version 1.0,
section [15]2.2.2 External Reference by URI
+ [16]Draft of revised text forwarded by Jerry Carter
(Member-only)
+ Completed action SW 2003/06/23: Talk to Voice Browser WG
about proposed text, then bring back to TAG. ([17]Done)
[13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#contentTypeOverride-24
[14] http://www.w3.org/TR/speech-grammar/
[15] http://www.w3.org/TR/speech-grammar/#S2.2.2
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jul/0026.html
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jul/0015.html
[Ian]
JC: Thanks to SW and IJ for discussions last week and for
comments on text. One point in contention was use of "type"
attribute overriding server headers. We've concluded that that
was inappropriate and the new language makes the headers
authoritative. We are taking a direction that the HTML WG seems
to be going with XHTML 2.0: using "type" as a kind of
preference (accept header). Once representation returned, if no
header sent, then type serves as a strong hint. Most of SW/IJ
comments have been incorporated. There are a few remaining
minor issues open.
TBray: Sounds like the results are clean and sensible. We
should all be happy.
[JC gives quick overview]
TBray: Looks fine to me.
DC: Please clarify the semantics of the table.
JC: First three lines provide context; fourth line provides
desired behavior.
DC: Declared media type, if I understand, is some combination
of server type and preferred type.
IJ: I had initially said that dual usage of "type" was
unnecessary; just use it as a preference.
[TBray]
I see potential editorial quibbles, but the thrust is
architecturally sound, are we micro-managing?
[Ian]
IJ: But SW made a good point that it's cheaper to verify
something's type than it is to determine the type of something.
DC: I"m not comfortable with "alleged media type". I'd be most
comfortable with a test case. You are headed for PR?
JC: Yes, this is the only outstanding issue.
DC: Do you have test cases for this behavior?
JC: I think so. I would need to look at details. We have about
200 tests. I believe there's a test for this; I"d have to be
sure.
DC: What would make me feel most comfortable is a test that
shows a server returning text/plain and an implementation
noticing the error.
JC: That's a reasonable request. There are probably 2-3 tests
one would run for this (i.e., each of the special cases).
DC: It's not critical that the TAG endorse the final text. We
were asked our opinion, we gave it, they tweaked their spec,
and everybody's happy.
JC: Outside of this discussion, I owe some personal feedback
regarding test cases. But I think the issues between the Voice
WG and the TAG are resolved.
SW: I'd like to record our thanks to the Voice WG!
TB, DC: Absolutely.
The TAG wishes the Voice WG good luck!
[JC leaves]
More discussion on reviews of [18]Client handling of MIME headers
1. Action CL, NW 2003/06/30: Read the draft finding by 7 July. [19]NW
Done
2. Completed action IJ 2003/06/30: Announce on www-tag that we expect
to approve this finding in a week or so. Last chance for comments
([20]Done)
3. Completed action IJ 2003/06/30: Ping SMIL IG about this finding,
which refers to architectural error in SMIL 2.0 ([21]Done).
4. See original [22]summary of comments
5. [23]Comments from Norm Walsh
6. See [24]comments from Philipp Hoschka and [25]comments from Rob
Lanphier
7. See [26]suggested editorial changes from TBL
8. [27]Comments from Stuart Williams
[18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.html
[19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0028.html
[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0002.html
[21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/symm/2003Jul/0004.html
[22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003May/0099.html
[23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0028.html
[24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jul/0005.html
[25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/symm/2003Jul/0011.html
[26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0020.html
[27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0030.html
[Ian]
[28]Comments from Norm Walsh
[28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0028.html
NW: My comments were mostly editorial nits; fine on the whole.
NW: In section 6, bullet 3, I would support "MUST NOT":
"Specifications MAY include hints about server headers but
SHOULD NOT include requirements that a client override these
headers without involving the user."
DC: Seems strange to constrain the spec. If you don't have the
user's consent, you can't hold them responsible. I don't think
this is the best advice we can give to spec writers .If a user
agent wants to do something different than the published
protocol, they have to do so with the consent of the user,
otherwise they are not acting on behalf of the user.
TBray: Any time somebody writes this sort of thing in a spec,
they can be sure they'll get static from the TAG.
DC: Will we read every spec? We can just say "The server mime
type is authoritative."
TBray: Then we should say nothing about what specs
do..."SHOULD" is misleading.
NW, DC: Change to MUST NOT in bullet 2.
IJ: I can live without bullet 3 since section 5 covers this.
Resolved: In section 6 of finding, drop bullet 3 and to change
SHOULD NOT to MUST NOT in item 2.
[29]Comments from Rob Lanphier
[29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/symm/2003Jul/0011.html
TBray: I think some of RL's comments about servers are useful,
e.g., default content type is harmful.
IJ: Seems like a reasonable addition to talk about how to
address this issue in practice.
DC: Don't talk about "harmful", talk about "risks of default
content type" The right answer in case of misconfigured server
is not to sweep it under the rug.
[30]Suggested editorial changes from TBL
[30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0020.html
TBray: Unless TBL can provide some examples of the impact on
programmers, what's the utility of this?
DC: To me this look editorial and is not a huge improvement.
Putting "the" in your face doesn't help things. I'd prefer that
IJ return to TBL and ask for more motivation.
TBray: I like TBL's example of showing how even self-describing
content not sufficient (or may provide wrong info) about
author's intent in some cases.
Action IJ: Produce a new draft of the finding on MIME headers
that takes into account comments from Rob Lanphier, TBL, NW, SW
(editorial), and above resolution.
[31]Comments from Stuart Williams
[31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0030.html
SW: I'd prefer "state of the resource" over "meaning of the
resource". I think that "meaning of the resource" is more
complex than its state. Also, the second security example
didn't seem so credible to me.
DC: "State" of the resource is ok.
IJ: I'll produce a new draft for next week.
[TBray]
Ian: I think asked you to send a note to the SMIL folks saying
"thanks, we're taking your input seriously & will redraft"
Action IJ: Follow up with SYMM IG saying we'll take into
account input and produce new draft of this finding.
2.2 Review of comments on whenToUseGet-7 finding
* [32]URIs, Addressability, and the use of HTTP GET and POST
+ [33]whenToUseGet-7
o [34]Summary of comments
o Action IJ 2003/06/23: Incorporate a sentence about scope
based on [35]comments from Larry Masinter
[32] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/whenToUseGet-20030509.html
[33] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist.html#whenToUseGet-7
[34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003May/0099.html
[35] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003May/0104.html
Summary of actions:
1. Action DO: Send text that DO and Noah M. can agree to to
tag@w3.org.
2. Action IJ: Produce new draft of finding with (1) change based on
LM comment, (2) text from DO/NM (3) don't address PUT in this
finding, but add comment about new issue [36]putMediaType-38
(second point in [37]summary of comments).
[36] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist.html#putMediaType-38
[37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003May/0099.html
2.3 TAG comments on SW draft of finding for issue metadataInURI-31
* [38]metadataInURI-31
+ Completed action SW 2003/06/02: SW [39]4 July 2003 draft of
finding
+ See also [40]TB email on Apple Music Store and use of URI
schemes instead of headers
[38] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#metadataInURI-31
[39] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/metaDataInURI-31-20030704.html
[40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Apr/0151.html
[DanC]
(hmm... no story atop [41]4 July 2003 draft of finding)
[41] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/metaDataInURI-31-20030704.html
[Ian]
DC: I think the finding may be getting too long. I was hoping
for three paras that say "Don't peek into URIs."
"People and software making use of URIs assigned outside of
their own authority (i.e. observers) MUST NOT attempt to infer
properties of the referenced resource except as licensed by
relevant normative specifications or by URI assignment policies
published by the relevant URI assignment authority."
SW: Can one make use of information published by W3C (in a
policy)?
DC: Shorten 3 to "Don't peek inside the URI." It's always safe
to not peek inside the URI. On Scheme component designators and
wsdl components....
[DanC]
the W3C tech reports naming policy isn't based on the URI
alone. there's no guarantee that
[42]http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-snort-20040707 is a W3C
working draft. If you know that it is a WD somehow, you can
learn stuff from the URI. but you can never just peek into the
URI alone.
[42] http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-snort-20040707
[Ian]
DO: DC's point (don't peek in URIs) is in conflict with what
some groups are trying to do.
SW: Does this draft need more work before sending to www-tag?
DO: I agree with DC that it seems a little long.
NW: If I understand DC correctly, sounds like DC is saying that
if I know XQuery is a Working Draft, then I can find meaning in
WD in URI. If I saw a URI ending in "WD-".... could I infer
that it's a WD?
DC: No You have to look at the TR page as well. Once you have
found something on the TR page, there's quite a bit you can go
on. If you start from the TR page and find the URI, that's
fine. But if you find the URI on the floor somewhere, you can't
go on that alone.
[Norm]
That [43]http://www.w3.org/TR/wd-foo exists does not imply foo
is a WD unless and until it appears *as a link* on the TR page.
[43] http://www.w3.org/TR/wd-foo
[Ian]
DC: Just don't peek in the URI.
DO: I don't want the finding written that way.
DC: A story would be useful. If you want to treat the entire
topic, then start with a story. It's not clear why someone
wants to read all this stuff. I don't think IJ is hot on the
trail of a story. I don't think this comes up very often...may
not deserve a real story.
SW: I will take a crack at writing something short before
floating on www-tag.
NW: Perhaps DO could write a couple of paragraphs to motivate
why one would want to do this.
[DanC]
which wsdl group posting?
[Ian]
DO: I'll write up something in response to SW's draft.
DC: I'm not sure putting burden on SW is appropriate. Maybe
just send what you've got and say there isn't agreement.
Promote third bullet to abstract.
DO: Amazon publishes policy for query parameters.
DC: Perhaps cheapest approach is to open up to community.
[DanC]
treating the whole forms interface convention is more than I
would have expected for a finding on issue metadataInURI-31
[Ian]
DO: Where do others stand on this?
NW: I'm definitely on the fence. I think there's a lot of merit
in "don't look inside the URI", but I understand what the WSDL
WG wants to do.
DC: Don't put version numbers in URIs was the original
question.
TBray: I think the answer is still "probably not"
Action SW: Create new draft based on input today and send to
www-tag.
Action DO: Send rationale about why WSDL WG wants to peek
inside the URI.
2.4 Findings the TAG did not discuss
See also: [44]findings.
[44] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/findings
Next steps on these findings:
* [45]xmlIDSemantics-32:
1. [46]Chris Lilley draft finding.
2. Action CL 2003/06/30: Revise this draft finding with new
input from reviewers. 7 July Deadline.
* [47]contentPresentation-26: Action CL 2003/06/02: Make available a
draft finding on content/presentation.
* Action IJ 2003/06/09: Turn [48]TB apple story into a finding.
[45] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#xmlIDSemantics-32
[46] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/xmlIDSemantics-32.html
[47] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#contentPresentation-26
[48] http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/04/30/AppleWA
2.3 Architecture document
[49]27 June 2003 Working Draft of Arch Doc published.
1. Discussion of [50]text sent by David Orchard about extensibility.
2. Completed action PC 2003/06/16: Send second draft of AC
announcement regarding TAG's last call expectations/thoughts and
relation to AC meeting feedback ([51]Done).
3. Action RF 2003/06/02: Rewrite section 5. Section 5 is expected to
be short.
4. Action IJ 2003/06/16: Attempt to incorporate relevant bits of
"[52]Conversations and State" into section to be produced by RF.
[49] http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-webarch-20030627/
[50] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jun/0086.html
[51] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jul/0019.html
[52] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Conversations
About [53]Paul's second draft of comments to AC.
[53] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jul/0019.html
[DanC]
the question of who sends it to ac-forum is a good one
[TBray]
Issue is: who sends this thing, and to whom
SW: want's TimBL's sign-off. I would want to sign it from both
of us.
[Ian]
DC: Don't put TBL's signature at bottom of something he hasn't
read.
TBray: I propose that SW find TBL and get him to sign off.
[TBray]
Action SW: Try to get TimBL to sign off on Paul's text. If SW
able to reach TBL, SW/TBL send to AC as co-chairs. If not, have
IJ send on behalf of TAG.
[DanC]
so RESOLVED
2.4 Issues the TAG did not discuss
* [54]errorHandling-20
+ Action CL 2003/02/06: Write a draft finding on the topic of
(1) early/late detection of errors (2) late/early binding (3)
robustness (4) definition of errors (5) recovery once error
has been signaled. Due first week of March.
* [55]RDFinXHTML-35
* [56]mixedUIXMLNamespace-33
[54] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#errorHandling-20
[55] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#RDFinXHTML-35
[56] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#mixedUIXMLNamespace-33
2.5 Issues with action items
* [57]uriMediaType-9
+ IANA appears to have responded to the spirit of this draft
(see [58]email from Chris Lilley).What's required to close
this issue?
+ Action CL 2003/05/05: Propose CL's three changes to
registration process to Ned Freed. [What forum?]
* [59]HTTPSubstrate-16
+ Action RF 2003/02/06: Write a response to IESG asking whether
the Web services example in the SOAP 1.2 primer is intended
to be excluded from RFC 3205
+ See [60]message from Larry Masinter w.r.t. Web services.
* [61]xlinkScope-23
+ See [62]draft, and [63]SW message to CG chairs.
+ Action CL 2003/06/30: Ping the chairs of those groups asking
for an update on xlinkScope-23.
* [64]binaryXML-30
+ Action TB 2003/02/17: Write to www-tag with his thoughts on
adding to survey.
+ Next steps to finding? See [65]summary from Chris.
* [66]xmlFunctions-34
+ Action TBL 2003/02/06: State the issue with a reference to
XML Core work. See [67]email from TimBL capturing some of the
issues.
* [68]siteData-36
+ Action TBL 2003/02/24 : Summarize siteData-36
[57] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#uriMediaType-9
[58] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0302.html
[59] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#HTTPSubstrate-16
[60] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0208.html
[61] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist.html#xlinkScope-23
[62] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Mar/0094.html
[63] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Mar/0104
[64] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#binaryXML-30
[65] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0224.html
[66] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#xmlFunctions-34
[67] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Feb/0309.html
[68] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist.html#siteData-36
2.6 Issues the TAG intends to discuss at face-to-face meeting
Identifiers
* [69]URIEquivalence-15
+ SW proposal: Track RFC2396bis where [70]Tim Bray text has
been integrated. Comment within the IETF process. Move this
issue to pending state.
* [71]IRIEverywhere-27
+ Action CL 2003/04/07: Revised position statement on use of
IRIs.
+ Action TBL 2003/04/28: Explain how existing specifications
that handle IRIs are inconsistent. [72]TBL draft not yet
available on www-tag.
+ See TB's[73]proposed step forward on IRI 27.
[69] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#URIEquivalence-15
[70] http://www.textuality.com/tag/uri-comp-4
[71] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#IRIEverywhere-27
[72] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Apr/0074.html
[73] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Apr/0090.html
Qnames, fragments, and media types
* [74]rdfmsQnameUriMapping-6
+ Action DC 2003/02/06: Propose TAG response to XML Schema
desideratum ([75]RQ-23).
* [76]fragmentInXML-28 : Use of fragment identifiers in XML.
1. Connection to content negotiation?
2. Connection to opacity of URIs?
3. No actions associated / no owner.
* [77]abstractComponentRefs-37
+ See [78]issue description from David Orchard. Next steps?
+ Action DO 2003/06/23: Point Jonathan Marsh at options. Ask
them for their analysis.
* [79]putMediaType-38
[74] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#rdfmsQnameUriMapping-6
[75] http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-xmlschema-11-req-20030121/#N400183
[76] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#fragmentInXML-28
[77] http://www.w3.org/2003/07/24-tag-summary.html#abstractComponentRefs-37
[78] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Apr/0089.html
[79] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#putMediaType-38
RDDL, namespace documents
* [80]namespaceDocument-8
+ Action TB 2003/04/07: Prepare RDDL Note. Include in status
section that there is TAG consensus that RDDL is a suitable
format for representations of an XML namespace. Clean up
messy section 4 of RDDL draft and investigate and publish a
canonical mapping to RDF. See TB's [81]1 June version.
+ Action PC 2003/04/07: Prepare finding to answer this issue,
pointing to the RDDL Note. See [82]comments from Paul
regarding TB theses.
+ Refer to draft TAG [83]opinion from Tim Brayon the use of
URNs for namespace names.
o RF: Folks assume that because the specs say so, URNs
will be persisitent. But persistence is a function of
institutional commitment and frequency of use.
[80] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#namespaceDocument-8
[81] http://www.tbray.org/tag/rddl/rddl3.html
[82] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Apr/0046.html
[83] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jun/0003.html
2.7 New issues?
The TAG expects to discuss these on 14 July.
1. [84]Visibility of Web Services, raised by Mark Baker
2. [85]Character model conformance, raised by TBL
3. [86]Meaning of URIs in RDF documents, raised by TBL
[84] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003May/0069.html
[85] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jun/0009.html
[86] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0022.html
3. Other actions
* Action IJ 2003/02/06: Modify issues list to show that
actions/pending are orthogonal to decisions. IJ and PLH making
substantial progress on this; hope to have something to show in
May.
_________________________________________________________________
Ian Jacobs for Stuart Williams and TimBL
Last modified: $Date: 2003/07/07 23:33:41 $
--
Ian Jacobs (ij@w3.org) http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
Tel: +1 718 260-9447
Received on Monday, 7 July 2003 19:43:14 UTC