- From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
- Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 15:53:29 -0400
- To: www-style@w3.org
- Cc: public-apa@w3.org
=========================================
These are the official CSSWG minutes.
Unless you're correcting the minutes,
Please respond by starting a new thread
with an appropriate subject line.
=========================================
Joint Meeting with APA
======================
ACT
---
- The recommendation is to use the CSS snapshot ( https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/ )
as an additional data point for what specs are stable and what
are still changing since TR can get out of date.
Media Queries 5
---------------
- There has been progress made on the user preferences section of
Media Queries 5. Though it's not stable, it is stabilizing so
now is a good time to review it.
- Some of the requests on the original wishlist
( https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Media_features_use_cases_for_personalization
)
have a dependency on creating a security/privacy model so the
recommendation is to open an issue with TAG to get them to look
into it further.
- The items on the wishlist looking to expose a value instead of a
yes/no answer (such as timeout) are probably better to be a part
of the Environment Variables spec ( https://drafts.csswg.org/css-env-1/ ).
CSS AAM
-------
- RESOLVED: Close CSS AAM / css-a11y Task force
- Coordination will continue using the github tags and review as is
currently happening.
- It was noted that the first Wednesday of each month the CSS group
meets at 4pmPT so there would not be a meeting conflict and APA
members could join for discussions.
Navigation
----------
- The Spatial Navigation spec ( https://drafts.csswg.org/css-nav-1/ )
had some progress on creating requirements for navigation using
up/down/left/right.
- It has been looked at by both chrome and chromium teams, however
no one on the call knew the current status or if the work was
different between chrome and chromium.
===== FULL MINUTES BELOW ======
Present:
Shadi Abou-Zahra, W3C
Rachel Andrew, Fronteers
Rossen Atanassov, Microsoft
Christian Biesinger, Google
Amy Carney, Invited Expert
Tantek Çelik, Mozilla
Elika Etemad, W3C Invited Expert
Wilco Fiers, Deque Research
Becky Gibson, Knowbility
Paul Grenier, IE
Brian Kardell, Igalia
James Nurthen, Adobe
Joshue O Connor, W3C
Theresa (Tess) O'Connor, Apple
Kazumasa Okabe, Yahoo! JAPAN
Justine Pascalides, Educational Testing Service
Simon Pieters, Bocoup
Morgan Reschenberg, Mozilla
Florian Rivoal, Invited Expert
Janina Sajka, Invited Expert
Boaz Sender, Bocoup
Jen Simmons, Apple
Alan Stearns, Adobe
Miriam Suzanne, Invited Expert
Jason White, Educational Testing Service
Gottfried Zimmermann, Invited Expert
Scribe: fantasai
Scribe's Scribe: boazsender
ACT
===
janina: ACT, suffice it to say they try to make the WCAG
machine-tested to the extent possible
janina: They've been running into issues with older CSS specs
janina: They asked if we could talk about that
<shadi> https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/477
<shadi> ^^issues with CSS specs
Wilco: ACT is tasked not just automations, but also to create clear
definitions for how to test
Wilco: We're currently focused on HTML, etc. and applying WCAG to
HTML
Wilco: We're referencing a lot of bits of the specs, translating
concepts
Wilco: So we make a lot of use of CSS specs, ARIA specs, etc.
Wilco: Everything depends on existing definitions
Wilco: Quite a number of specs which appear not to be actively
worked on
Wilco: Here's a list of specs we've referenced at one point or
another
Wilco: Reason we're using them are browsers implemented them
Wilco: Advice on how to deal with that, and see if any of these can
be completed at some point
janina: I wonder if an example of a problem might be helpful
<fantasai> +1 to example
Wilco: We have some rules around CSS transforms
Wilco: CSS Transforms spec, there's a recommendation
Wilco: ...
fantasai: Not sure if this is a problem with the TR being out of
date, or the stage not being advanced enough in the w3c
Process
Wilco: It seems like the specs are out of date
fantasai: This is definitely a problem we have. astearns asked me to
draft a report on this. What we need to do in the csswg,
which the chairs need to lead, is a project in which we
systematically update the specs. Thanks for coming to
complain, maybe it will get the rest of the working group
to care.
janina: Is the issue that draft word is making you reticent to rely
on the current spec?
janina: Because concerned they might change?
Wilco: Can't build on them because they're not stable
Wilco: More permanent status, could be more reliable
Wilco: confident wouldn't get changed up from under us
<shadi> +1 to Wilco
fantasai: https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/
fantasai: Another thing that might be useful is the css snapshot
fantasai: which will let you know a spec is stable
fantasai: A lot of our specs are not in CR since there are a lot of
issues in them, but they are being shipped
fantasai: Snapshot will tell you where our specs are
<TabAtkins> Will note that the idea that you shouldn't rely on
drafts is a persistent but untrue idea. Drafts don't
guarantee stability, but they don't guarantee
instability either, and *because* TR is often
out-of-date, the drafts usually contain the most
accurate info about the bits that are implemented.
fantasai: Anything in the snapshot is fair game, and probably a few
more
fantasai: We triage every year and add things
Wilco: Sounds good, thanks
Media Queries 5
===============
janina: We came with a wishlist many years ago
janina: Excited to see some of the user-oriented specificity for
contrast etc.
janina: A lot of this came out of work jcraig was doing
janina: Wanted to ask about progess on that
janina: Some comments from APA also
<Gottfried> Wiki page:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Media_features_use_cases_for_personalization
janina: How are implementations coming along? Does it look promising?
Rossen: Clarification on what we were discussing back then?
<jcraig> The user preferences section
<Gottfried> Spec chap. 11:
https://drafts.csswg.org/mediaqueries-5/#mf-user-preferences
florian: This is looking pretty good. Spec isn't final, a number of
issues still open
florian: Things are stabilizing, not stabilized
florian: but things are landing
florian: A number of things related to color and contrast
florian: Addressing preferences for contrast, forced colors mode and
letting authors know about it
florian: Preferences wrt colors scheme, reduced motion / transparency
florian: both on expressing user preference, some of which tied to
a11y, also colors, fairly rich set of things
florian: All are progressing in terms of implementation. Not
finalized but moving along
florian: More things in that spec also, in particular relating to
video, these are a bit controversial
florian: but overall spec is good. Good time to review, not
finalized so still opportunity to change
jcraig: A lot of these were indeed things we drafted in Indie UI and
proposed in CSS
jcraig: Thanks florian for doing the work
jcraig: Bunch of other topics we were discussing wrt Indie UI, much
more detailed media features
jcraig: but Indie UI has a security/privacy model proposal and Media
Queries doesn't have that
jcraig: so we're butting up to the edge of what we can request
without asking for user permission
jcraig: Things that have overlap have broader interest in
mainstream, so less concern over privacy
jcraig: Some topics are off the table until can restrict access to
MQ info behind security/privacy model
Gottfried: When would that happen though?
Gottfried: Wrt our wishlist, is there any way to deal with this, say
this is L5 and this goes into L6?
Gottfried: We also have a few items that are very important, which
are not a fixed set. E.g. session timeout
Gottfried: Would be great if an author could basically find out, as
a variable, how long is the preferred session timeout of
the user
Gottfried: Is there any model foreseen where a web author could get
a value transferred from a system setting and use that?
<Gottfried> Wish list:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Media_features_use_cases_for_personalization
jcraig: There is no Media Feature Privacy Model being worked on AFAIK
jcraig: but would be good to link to work
florian: Indie UI did have some things. There's been a lot of
discussion of security/privacy in general since then
florian: I'm not an expert, so I understand the need, but I can't do
it
florian: If you have an idea, please propose it. Putting something
wrong is a better way to get what's right rather than just
waiting
Gottfried: Folks who worked on the old security model, any way to
transfer to CSS?
jcraig: It's possible, maybe. There were a number of ideas in that
one. Wasn't fully fleshed out, and would take awhile to work
out the kinks, and I don't think CSS is the right landing
spot for that.
Rossen: Would recommend opening an issue with the TAG
Rossen: Would be good to look at security model and see where it
should land
jcraig: I think I have an issue filed against CSS also
Gottfried: If we have things like e.g. values for session timeout
Gottfried: is there anyone that we could do this with media features
or other tech
florian: MQ are not great for ask how many of something, they're
questions that are answered by yes/no
florian: You can ask "is the timeout more than 60 sec", can do that
florian: but if what you want to expose is the number, it's the
wrong tool
Gottfried: But we'd still need a model for this value
florian: To expose values to CSS, we have environment variables.
florian: If you want to expose to CSS specifically, that's the right
tool.
florian: but for JS, I'm not sure. Probably need something different.
<Wilco> +1
<florian> environment variables are at https://drafts.csswg.org/css-env-1/
<TabAtkins> I haven't been entirely clear on what "session" is being
talked about here.
<TabAtkins> Like, a bank website imposing a relatively small
activity-based timeout?
<jcraig> This is probably the best Privacy & Media Features issue:
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/3488
<Joshue108> Just for the record, also as James mentioned a similar
spec the PING privacy threat model may be of interest
https://w3cping.github.io/privacy-threat-model/
CSS AAM
=======
Rossen: Is the CSS AAM still a thing
janina: Yet Another Accessibility API Model
janina: From the APA side, wondering if that's still something we're
hoping to get to
janina: Do we have a timeframe?
jamesn: I'm not aware of what's going on in that space right now
Rossen: AAM mostly started from need to go and define a lot of the
things that were longstanding complaints wrt CSS, and visual
effects that CSS adds to content
Rossen: Examples vary from flexbox reordering to being able to
position something on top of something else with z-index,
etc.
Rossen: When we started this many years ago, there was strong
interest from both sides
Rossen: We created a repo and ML, but very little work has happened
<jensimmons> What's the link to the repo?
Rossen: What can we do to make the work happen?
Rossen: Haven't seen many people participate, so don't even know who
to look to for an answer
Rossen: Would be a good medium to liaison things that are issues
with CSS, but given fact that it's been 4-5 years at this
point and not much has happened
Rossen: Chances of something happening in the next few years are
probably the same
Rossen: so should rethink if this is the best path forward
jcraig: My approach has been if I have an accessibility issue with
CSS, I bring it directly to CSS.
jcraig: I find intermediary groups not so effective, ends up
duplicating conversations and gaps in knowledge
jcraig: So find most value in bringing the a11y issues to this group
and having this group deal with it
Rossen: That's the approach that many have taken, and one that I
have preference for
Rossen: Having entirety of CSSWG look at incoming issues is usually
productive for us
janina: I'm fine with that actually
janina: I know we tried to put a TF together between CSS/ARIA/APA,
but hasn't quite reached the level of functional
janina: Might have some opportunity there again, but informal if
need be
janina: Amy Carney who is participating consistently and reliably
with APA going through CSS issues
janina: not getting much response because of lack of expertise, with
her help been working through them slowly
janina: without AAM ...
janina: We're in a better position to clear issues atm
janina: fantasai has been helping by flagging specs for APA review
janina: so working through backlog
janina: and that seems like the answer atm
janina: Maybe Amy can be formal liaison
janina: let's work on better work mode.
Rossen: We've been diligent about tagging issues with various labels
in order to attract attention for horizontal review or other
WG attention
Rossen: When people open issues in our repo, we try to figure out
what it's related to, is it a11y-related
Rossen: Having said everything, putting forward motion of sunsetting
CSS AAM and continuing in liaison mode going forward?
janina: I think so! We can resurrect it in the future if necessary.
jamesn: CSS AAM lives in ARIA WG, nothing happening
jamesn: Thought we were working about css-a11y TF
jamesn: but doesn't need css-a11y TF
Rossen: Great clarification, it is the TF that we are sunsetting
jcraig: Wanted to remind group that there are two CSS meeting times,
once per month it is 4pm Pacific
jcraig: which doesn't conflict, so can choose to discuss issues at
that time and join the CSS call
<astearns> the first wednesday of each month has that meeting timing
[[ Note CSSWG repo has 'Agenda+ APAC' tag for slotting an item to
that particular timing ]]
RESOLVED: Close CSS AAM / css-a11y Task force
Navigation
==========
janina: We've had some discussion of semantic navigation vs layout
navigation models
janina: I think issue never got resolved
janina: idk if any updates
janina: Maybe this is another one we drop for now, without someone
wanting to work on a specific model
florian: It's a little more positive than that but not completely...
florian: Jihye and I were involved for awhile on writing a Spatial
Navigation specification
florian: which would define a model for what happens when you try to
navigate up/down/left/right rather than next/previous
florian: and what kind of APIs exist to allow authors to adjust when
UA gets it wrong
florian: Initial stage was polyfill-driven
florian: we got a model going
florian: Moved into an exploration in the Chrome implementation
florian: but don't know what happened after
florian: Whether it's validating the model or they're moving to
something else, or if it's done or given up
florian: Anyone from Chrome know where this went?
Rossen: Can't speak for Chrome, because don't work for Google
Rossen: But from Chromium point of view, from discussions we've had
in the past we have considered this, we have discussed quite
a bit in various forms
Rossen: The running model that most engineers have gravitated
towards are based in enabling spatial navigation on top of
existing accessibility APIs
Rossen: and existing accessibility tree
Rossen: and its ability to describe a visual model as it does for
screenreaders
Rossen: Need both types of UI pieces on the screen
Rossen: This has additional benefits
Rossen: First, it builds on existing platform and systems on every
native platform
Rossen: Second, there's an additional incentive for people to
annotate and make sure their content is an accessible format
Rossen: so that such navigation models can have easier time with
content
Rossen: Broadly speaking, always two major categories
Rossen: when these discussions take place, intermingled
Rossen: people have hard time separating
Rossen: One category is what I'd consider "structured application
model UI"
Rossen: Usually composed of not too many top-level items that are
being presented for navigation
Rossen: and then there's normal Web, where you have e.g. NYTimes and
it's a bunch of elements all over the place
Rossen: Making two consistent and perform in the same expected way
Rossen: is a very tall order
Rossen: By default browser will have harder time making something
like this work from the get-go
Rossen: but application model, which has more applicability in TVs
etc, that one is pretty straightforward to make it work with
this technology
Rossen: So this is where the discussions are in the Chromium
community
Rossen: as of ~6 months ago
florian: Then we have double homework
florian: because I know that the model Jihye and I wrote in the spec
continued to be explored by Chrome engineers
florian: so we should try to see if that discussion merged into the
one you discussed, or they're separate and we should
connect them
florian: And then if they diverged from what the spec says, then we
need to make sure things in sync
florian: I'll note also I used to be sponsored to work on this, but
no longer am, so can't lead this.
rachelandrew: This is something that comes up all the time when I
talk to authors
rachelandrew: So there is interest from Web developers to do the
right thing
rachelandrew: The want to use these tools, but concerned about a11y
impact
rachelandrew: so need to do something about it
rachelandrew: People want to do the right thing, but lots of use
cases for reordering stuff, and tripping up over it
Rossen: Provided no one on the call from Google who could signal any
additional progress happening in the area, should table this
question and answer it in an issue?
bkardell: Just want to point out, last year in Toronto we had
someone from Google who came and gave an alternative
vision for this, which they had prototyped
bkardell: I've meet with some other people who had some other ideas.
bkardell: If there's exploration in Chromium, it would be downstream
from the thing Florian and Jihye worked on
Rossen: So, we're at time.
Rossen: This particular topic, best path forward is to ask at least
someone to run down the status of where the current Chromium
community is with this particular implementation
experimentation
Rossen: If I'm missing anything on this topic at Apple / Mozilla,
please bring it up
Rossen: Please raise issues against css-nav spec
<florian> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-nav-1/
janina: This has been productive yet again, thank you everyone
Rossen: We are certainly interested in Web remaining accessible,
please raise issues and/or talk with the liaison! Thanks
everyone
Received on Saturday, 17 October 2020 19:54:17 UTC