W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > January 2018

Re: [css-ui] css-counter-styles or outline

From: Florian Rivoal <florian@rivoal.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 10:31:04 +0900
Message-Id: <9585B0FE-94A5-47A8-A939-EC43DD3D9E89@rivoal.net>
Cc: www-style@w3.org
To: Dennis Heuer <einz@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de>


> On Jan 15, 2018, at 22:19, Dennis Heuer <einz@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 10:55:03 +0900
> Florian Rivoal <florian@rivoal.net <mailto:florian@rivoal.net>> wrote:
>> Writing to this mailing list is reasonably likely to work, but there
>> is also a risk that your comment will be overlooked because this is
>> not how we triage and track issues. As I presume you are interested in
>> getting your issues addressed, I recommend using github in the
>> future. 
> 
> Sorry that we'll not meet!

I like email too. The group decided to move over to GitHub, so I did so too, because it is hard
to have a conversation without being where everyone is.

This mailing list is open, you can write to it. I and others will generally respond. But there's
no way to assign things to anyone, nor to mark issues as open or closed, to tag something
for discussion in an upcoming meeting, etc, so there's a risk things get lost.

>>> It remains unclear how to set the text where (e.g. is title =
>>> subject and is summary of comment = css-counter-styles?):
>> 
>> Github issues, as we request that you file, have a "title" field.
>> This is where you should write the title.
>> 
>> A summary of your comment means just that: you summarize what you are
>> writing about. If you think for example that there is a problem in the
>> grammar of the outline property, you would write "[css-ui] problem
>> with the grammar of the outline property", and then give details in
>> the body issue.
> 
> Still remains unclear where to put: css-counter-styles?

If your issue is about two specifications, you can write:
[css-ui][css-counter-styes] Lorem ipsum dolor

If you have two issues, send two mails /  file two issues.

> To be honest, what is written in the document is hardly analysable!

It is very unlikely that the group will move away from Github as the primary way to send feedback.
But other than that, if you have suggestions on how we could rephrase the text that explains how
to send feedback, that's very welcome. If you do have suggestions, please start a separate thread
for that topic (or file a separate github issue).

> That is the nonsense I heard very often now here at this place. You are
> at github but have no clou of versioning? The most important browsers
> still support broken websites from their times of f*cking browser war.

I suggest you try a different style of writing. Swearing and insulting people is very unlikely to
convince anyone to listen to you. 

I will continue to reply to this mail, but I will not reply to further mails if they are not more civil.


> Clean up, guys! 
...
> you guys
...
> browser guys

This group is not exclusively composed of men. Neither are the teams working on browser
implementations.

"Guys" is not an appropriate word to refer to all participants collectively. Please phrase things
differently.

> So why you can't just define a rule like:
> 
> css: 3;
> 
> and let the rest of the www get interpreted for css21? My god, then you
> could stay away from your should-we-leave-that mentality and clean up!
> 
> No, I don't accept your way here because it is stubborn and backwards
> and, firstmost, illogic. Websites got broken several times now -
> because of you guys (you remember the early days?) but specifically the
> browser guys. And this is normal! GNOME switches regularly, KDE is a
> mess, Apple just switched the core language and Windows is a
> maintenance crisis. Is Windows dead?????????????
> 
> Clean up, guys! Get VERSIONING!


We can version software, we cannot version the world. The point of a web browser is not
to have a beautiful architecture, it is to browse the web as it exists, not as we would like it
to be. The documents exist, and they need be rendered properly, regardless of how well
or how strangely they are written. If they work today, they need to continue to work.

Occasionally, it is possible to make breaking change, when the problem it solves is major,
and the breakage is very limited. But that's the exception, not the rule, and it is very hard to do,
because nobody is the boss of the web and can order everyone to update. Unless everybody
is convinced that breaking existing sites is a good idea, the change will not happen.

As I wrote in another mail, "@css: 3;" won't work. Existing browsers would discard it and follow
the usual rules of css for the rest of the stylesheet. This means that new browsers would need
to do the same, otherwise they would not be compatible with existing ones.

—Florian


Received on Tuesday, 16 January 2018 01:31:31 UTC

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