- From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:32:32 -0400
- To: www-style@w3.org
========================================= These are the official CSSWG minutes. Unless you're correcting the minutes, Please respond by starting a new thread with an appropriate subject line. ========================================= Spec REC-ing ------------ - There is a goal to take Writing Modes to PR at the F2F next week, so anyone with interest was asked to review the DoC (https://drafts.csswg.org/css-writing-modes-3/issues-cr-2015) & Implementation Report (https://drafts.csswg.org/css-writing-modes-3/implementation-report.html) in advance of the meeting. - Some of the changes were made to the Fonts 3 test font, the rest will be made soon. - The SVG breakout call made it through most of the Transforms topics that needed SVG input. Partial implementations of space-evenly in grid but not flexbox --------------------------------------------------------------- - Discussion on what's the right approach and what is too hard for implementors will happen at the F2F. How to NOT justify a piece of text inside a justified paragraph? ---------------------------------------------------------------- - RESOLVED: Allow text-justify:none to apply to inlines. Ambiguities with 0 valid for all dimensions ------------------------------------------- - RESOLVED: Only spec the unitless 0 quirk for transforms & gradients. Define which subresources block the DOM load event -------------------------------------------------- - RESOLVED: Add proposed DOM load events to Values & Units. Figure out the interaction between line-height-step and the lh and rlh units ------------------------------------------------------------------ - The proposed solution is lh includes calculation of line-height-step and if lh is used in line-height-step property, it refers to unadjusted line-height property. - The group will resolve once the formal spec text is available. Alignment Issues ---------------- - RESOLVED: Push fallback alignments to L4. - RESOLVED: Safe & unsafe keywords ordered before alignment keywords. - RESOLVED: Drop justify-content: baseline. ===== FULL MINUTES BELOW ====== Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Apr/0026.html Present: Rachel Andrew Rossen Atanassov Tab Atkins Tantek Çelik Benjamin De Cock Dave Cramer Alex Critchfield Elika Etemad Dael Jackson Myles Maxfield Michael Miller Melanie Richards Florian Rivoal Jen Simmons Alan Stearns Lea Verou Steve Zilles Regrets: David Baron Bert Bos Daniel Glazman Tony Graham Anton Prowse Scribe: dael Agenda Setting ============== Rossen: Let's get going! Rossen: Any additional things to add to the agenda? fantasai: Probably the alignment issues. Rossen: What about? fantasai: I think I sent an email yesterday. Rossen: [looking] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2017AprJun/0019.html Rossen: Is that the query at the bottom of the email? fantasai: There's the 3 need input ones. <Rossen> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Acss-align-3 Rossen: The three I pasted ^. Rossen: That's great. If we're going to start changing tags anything that needs agenda+ should have that. Needs input sounds to me like a please respond. fantasai: Sure. I think at least one was deferred from earlier discussion. Rossen: Sure. It's just easier to only track agenda+. Do they need to be today? fantasai: Nope. Rossen: Anything else? Rossen: Quick reminder, we have F2F next week. Please add agenda topics. Safe travels. Spec REC-ing ============ Rossen: Writing modes impl report...Is koji on? koji: Yes. Rossen: How are we doing with the impl report? koji: I think it's done from my POV. I'm wondering if anyone can give feedback and if there's any other work needed to move to PR. koji: astearns sent we need a DoC and I think it's done. koji: Advice on what to do next is appreciated. Florian: koji can you send links so I'm reviewing the right thing? <koji> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-writing-modes-3/implementation-report.html <koji> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-writing-modes-3/issues-cr-2015 koji: Implementation report & DoC^ Florian: I would like to review, but haven't had time. Should we resolve to go to PR if everything is good next week? Rossen: That would be great. Would there be enough people to review until then? <astearns> I will review the doc, have already looked at the implementation report Florian: We can pre-review until then. Going through this during the meeting with review ahead if possible. Rossen: If everyone interested in Writing Modes could take a look at both docs before the meeting it would be great. We'll try and go to PR during the meeting. Thanks koji for taking the time to do these. Rossen: Fonts L3 Rossen: ChrisL and Myles I believe the font issue is addressed. myles: There were two issues. One is broken on some platforms, one is that it didn't support everything Chris wanted to test. I fixed the first, not the second. Rossen: So we have a way to do some set of tests and ChrisL is asking for more features. Are you planning on adding those soon? myles: Probably on the plane to Tokyo. Rossen: Oh, that would be great. Rossen: Do you know with the fixed font what percentage of the tests pass? myles: I don't. Rossen: Okay, thanks for helping. Rossen: Cascade L3 we had some test start to be added by gregwhitworth. Rossen: We did discuss last week Mozilla will look for somebody to try and locate tests. Just a ping to Mozilla folks did you find someone? Or should we postpone until F2F? <tantek> postpone Rossen: Okay, waiting. Conditional rules is the same, it's on the agenda. Rossen: smfr was supposed to look at V&U edits. I believe that's wait for F2F. Rossen: Backgrounds & borders- did we make any progress on further evaluation on what was failing before? Rossen: I'll take that as he is not on call. Rossen: Transforms L1. Rossen: We did have the SVG call last week and we resolved on a few issues. Rossen: fantasai correct me, but I think we made it through almost all pending transform L1 issues. fantasai: We focused on the ones impacting SVG. Rossen: Right, I'm saying the ones that needed their input. fantasai: Right. fantasai: Rossen we're at 15 minutes, we're just at status reporting too. Maybe we should do this by email or at least figure out who is not here or figure out what's not done before. fantasai: If you want every week for me to give you a list of specs I haven't worked on I can do that every week. Rossen: Why would that apply to you. fantasai: Because I don't feel we're making any progress. Rossen: Let's table this until F2F and have it there. Will that work for you? fantasai: Yes. <tantek> can we timebox status updates to first 5 min of call? and start at 9:00? <tantek> (modest proposal :) ) Rossen: Did we republish Flexbox? fantasai: It has open issues. fantasai: Grid is waiting for Mats to say if he's okay on an issue and we're blocked on publication. Partial implementations of space-evenly in grid but not flexbox =============================================================== <Rossen> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1167 Florian: CSS align adds a bunch of values that apply in multiple layout modes. The guidelines to impl is the same where we say don't ship until you impl everything. Because it's in a bunch of layout modes that didn't happen. Space-evenly is impl only for Grid in some browsers. Florian: If you try to use @supports to detect it fails because it's implemented, but not in flexbox. Do we intend people should hold off until implementing in all layout modes? If no, what do we intend? What's happening right now seems not great. I want to give some advice on what should be done. Rossen: I see fantasai did a PR with some edits. Florian: I had not seen that. Rossen: I wonder if that's enough to address the issue. Florian: [reads through github] Rossen: fantasai is there anything else you want to add? <fantasai> no <fantasai> I have nothing to add Florian: I'm not sure I understand the edit. Florian: Can you explain the intention, fantasai? fantasai: Let's discuss during the F2F then. Florian: Quickly, are current implementations doing the right thing? fantasai: Some aren't. Florian: Sure. We can take it next week. fantasai: Somebody impl a keyword for align-content in grid that means nothing in flexbox. If you do align-content in flexbox you must impl all keywords to claim support. The keyword has to be impl across all layout modules for which the impl claims support. Florian: We'll need impl feedback. fantasai: I think they're unwilling to do all at once. So not grid and flexbox and abspos and multicol etc. at the same time. That's fine. Don't support start and center and not end on multicol. If you're going to support the property you don't have to do it on every layout mode, but you have to support all the keywords. Florian: I think that's what the Chromium folks were saying was too hard. fantasai: I don't see why that would be too much. Once you have it the keywords are easy. Florian: So this needs to be between you, me, and someone from Chrome. Roosen: Next is "Define interaction of display:contents and replaced elements" Rossen: Seems like this is push to F2F. Rossen: Unless fantasai or anyone wants to add something I suggest we move on. Rossen "Should anonymous boxes always inherit through the box tree?" fantasai: I think this would benefit from dbaron and boris input. Rossen: Anyone else want to discuss? <tantek> I think that's a good one to save for f2f <tantek> since it usually helps to have diagrams for anything with anon boxes How to NOT justify a piece of text inside a justified paragraph? ================================================================ fantasai: That use case is handled by text-justify and using value none. Currently that's the block containers and optionally inline. We could solve by applying to inlines in general, but is that something people can make sense out of? Would impl be willing to support? Rossen: So you're saying I could have a span with text-align: justify and the text in that span will span? fantasai: text-justify: none to the span and text-align: justify to the <p> fantasai: I'm willing to give this a go. If there's a combo of values that makes no sense that can be undefined. Rossen: So intended behavior is that the basic layout of the current segment that sits outside the inline is not considered for justification for the rest of the segments? fantasai: You have a line of text with 5 segments, each with a different justification. Those five segments will behave differently depending on their justification property. fantasai: The issue is it's unclear with all these options on one line, how do you prioritize? That's the reason why I wasn't sure. Certainly the none is straight forward. The issue comes up when you have more specific instructions. Rossen: So from implementor POV it doesn't seem crazy. What are the use cases for having the behaviors? fantasai: If you want something to not justify none is useful. Another is you might want inter-character justification within a long phrase of quoted English. I don't know. dauwhe: I want this. dauwhe: To suppress justification in certain spans this would be useful. <jensimmons> +1 fantasai: Then I propose we add it and people can add issues if necessary. Rossen: Any objections to allowing text-justify:none to apply to inlines? RESOLVED: allow text-justify:none to apply to inlines Ambiguities with 0 valid for all dimensions =========================================== Rossen: We don't have TabAtkins. TabAtkins: I am on. TabAtkins: A while back in a meeting I missed we decided to allow unitless 0 for all angles because there were places where impl allowed it. I don't think we did for all dimensions. fantasai: Correct. TabAtkins: Even just on length vs angle it causes grammar ambiguity in motion where the shorthand can combine a length and angle. In general this will become a problem. Unitless 0 are a legacy mistake. This will cause footguns in the future. I would like to revisit the decision and make it unitless 0 angles in the functions that allow them as a legacy thing and then restrict to just lengths in grammars. <fremy> I think that makes sense Florian: Since you're revisiting, do you recall the arguments for generalization? TabAtkins: Basically, the places are the common places where angle is used. It was a harmonization effort. Reasonable argument in general, but I believe in this case it's not worth the effort. Rossen: I also vaguely remember when we discussed...I can't find the minutes to recall... fantasai: It was Sydney I believe. TabAtkins: In the thread posted on 3/13/16 called minutes...part 1 web compat challenges <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2016Mar/0205.html Rossen: Sooo, okay. I'm assuming you took those...are you now proposing to change the resolution? TabAtkins: Yes. Given now that I have evidence it's causing syntax ambiguous in a spec and will likely continue to do so in other specs. I would like to avoid this footgun of ambiguous token types. Rossen: Other opinions? TabAtkins: From the summary there were three options. 1) file bugs to fix the code, 2) spec the quirk for transforms & gradients, 3) allow for all. I think 2 is the way to go. <fantasai> would like to hear from implementors, esp dbaron & smfr, but otherwise has no objection <Florian> sounds sane to me. Rossen: Who is editing? TabAtkins: Me or leaverou Rossen: Okay. Rossen: So you're calling to change the resolution to only have the quirk for transforms & gradients and TabAtkins or leaverou can make the edits. Rossen: Objections? RESOLVED: Only spec the unitless 0 quirk for transforms & gradients. <leaverou> is there a Github issue for this? <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1162 Define which subresources block the DOM load event ================================================== <Rossen> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1088 TabAtkins: This is a good question. * fantasai votes for CSSOM :p TabAtkins: I suspect...probably in the definition of URL in V&U. It's not great. gsnedders: That doesn't work for @import. TabAtkins: That's fine because url type is string or URL function fantasai: That's not true. TabAtkins: The generic <url> is not, but it's defined it can be strings. fantasai: It's noted that in some places it can be but those places have to define. TabAtkins: Which import does. TabAtkins: So if we'll define it probably V&U. Other choice is distributing it everywhere, but we would need concepts to link to. I don't have a strong opinion. gsnedders: Some will depend on if everything has same behavior. TabAtkins: It's fine to have a list of different behaviors. Rossen: Does a separate module make sense? fantasai: I think I agree with TabAtkins. I think we should define there for properties and then the @rules should define for themselves what they do. It would be weird if backgrounds is different than counter styles. Rossen: Okay. So let's start in V&U Florian: I'm wondering about this all properties should behave the same is a correct assertion. TabAtkins: We didn't assert that. Florian: Then it's good. Rossen: Obj to adding proposed DOM load events to V&U? RESOLVED: add proposed DOM load events to V&U Figure out the interaction between line-height-step and the lh and rlh units ================================================================== Florian: We have lh and rlh unit and we have line-height-step property. The later should influence the formers. Florian: So the lh is eq to the value of line-height property. If there's line-height-step it steps up the size so lh and rlh should step up. fantasai: I think it makes sense. It needs special behavior on line-height, but we need this. It's fairly straight-forward and can be computed value Florian: If the line height in reality is stepped up you want the lh to be doing the same or otherwise it will not be matching. myles: If you make it work like em it's good. fantasai: It's similar. Slightly more complex, but the same principle. Florian: If we do that the only question is how to we break the cycle when we us lh in line-height-step. You do value on parent for pre-adjust value fantasai: Value before adjusting. Parent doesn't make sense. It's weird. Florian: I can sort of imagine both, but I prefer the same. Florian: Other direction is I want my line step height to be 2lh. That doesn't sound insane. fantasai: Then why aren't you adjusting the lh property. Your target line height is 10px, but you're setting line-height-step to 20px...that's weird. <tantek> leaning towards what fantasai is saying, I'd need to see the use-case that would need line-step-height to be 2lh. Florian: Fair enough. I say same as you. Florian: Is koji still around? Florian: Are you okay with this? koji: I think so. I'm not sure I fully understand. koji: Do you think that only for line-height and line-height-step... I guess it's helpful to write a proposal. <fantasai> proposal is lh includes calculation of line-height-step <fantasai> and if lh is used in line-height-step property, it refers to unadjusted line-height property Florian: All fonts related units need some exceptions. Other then that there's nothing special. koji: If it's like em I'm probably fine. Florian: Concept is the same. Details will need tweaks. koji: I think it's fine until there's more details to discuss. Florian: I feel good enough to leave it to editors, but if you want a PR first that's fine. koji: Okay. That's good. Rossen: Who will have the proposed text? fantasai: TabAtkins or I will fix it. Florian: Alright. If I find time I can make the PR. Rossen: Resolve now or after koji reviews? fantasai: Up to koji. koji: Whichever is fine. Rossen: Let's resolve on this one. Rossen: I mean when we have proposed text. Rossen: We have the 3 CSS alignment issues fantasai pointed out. Do you have an order? CSS Alignment issues ==================== Allowing fallback alignments without breaking shorthands -------------------------------------------------------- <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1002 fantasai: First is the issue on allowing fallback alignment. fantasai: We have several types like space-between which don't make sense unless you have more than one item. fantasai: Since they have syntax for fallback it has been problematic. We've had proposals, but TabAtkins and I were thinking let's drop for this level and reduce the number of stuff in the spec. No fallback alignments for now, we'll add them fairly quickly in L4. fremy: Did we not resolve on that last time? fantasai: Let me see. Rossen: If we did, I don't believe it was under that issue. [minutes searching] fremy: I'm fine with re-resolving. Rossen: Let's assume we didn't. Rossen: Any other comments? Rossen: TabAtkins I see you commented where you proposed commas to separate fallback. TabAtkins: Yeah, but I'd rather drop for now. We can always address it in the future. TabAtkins: Push to level 4. My suggestion was compatible with drop for now. Rossen: Let's push it to level 4. Objections? RESOLVED: Push fallback alignments to L4. Fix order of `unsafe`/`safe` keyword wrt alignment keyword? ----------------------------------------------------------- <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1001 Rossen: Unsafe/safe keywords fantasai: They can be either order, but introduced an ambiguity when we did shorthands. To resolve the ambiguity we propose to fix the order and require safe or unsafe to be before the alignment it modifies. fantasai: Alternate proposals are welcome. Rossen: Any alternate proposals? Rossen: Proposal doesn't sound crazy. From an implementor PoV it's straight forward to handle. Rossen: I don't see a big reason why not to go with the proposed ordering. Rossen: Any comments? RESOLVED: safe & unsafe keywords ordered before alignment keywords. Rossen: Last is about last baseline alignment for scrollable boxes. fantasai: This is a longer discussion. We might want that at the F2F. I'll push this to that agenda. Rossen: Yeah, this needs a whiteboard. Drop justify-content: <baseline-position> ----------------------------------------- <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1184 fantasai: There's a quick one. I realized we have values that don't do anything. fantasai: Assuming that's correct I'd like to drop them. Rossen: I thought we resolved in the past. We were discussing in grid and later resolved on conference calls to drop. fantasai: We dropped the concept. The writing mode will always be fixed for align and justify content so justify-self will have baseline, but justify-content will never apply afaict. fantasai: I think that's how it works. If anyone has a case I'd be happy to reconsider, but I just noticed that. Rossen: Makes sense to me. <astearns> makes sense to me <Florian> I cannot think of a case where it would apply Rossen: I see general consensus around dropping it. Objections to dropping justify-content: baseline since it only applies in block axis? RESOLVED: Drop justify-content: baseline Rossen: And that's the end of those issue and the top of the hour. TabAtkins: Can we try and do my topic that fill & stroke should be L3? fantasai: We resolved that. fantasai: I'll get you the minutes. Rossen: Yeah, and fantasai asked plh for the short name change. <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Mar/0088.html <fantasai> minutes^ TabAtkins: Okay. Cool. Alright. Rossen: Thanks everyone for calling. Rossen: Safe travels to those flying to Tokyo!
Received on Thursday, 13 April 2017 00:33:38 UTC