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Re: Hanging Punctuation Questions

From: Takao Baba <baba@bpsinc.jp>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:32:52 +0900
Message-ID: <CAAWjb-fQwDTjnSBCpQd1gGYAeqyH5YHkTfS94=LJSjc5TKGjJA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Xidorn Quan <quanxunzhen@gmail.com>
Cc: David Hyatt <hyatt@apple.com>, www-style list <www-style@w3.org>
> (6) The WG resolved overflow is ink overflow. I think it should be scrollable overflow.
>  I can elaborate on this if needed, but it’s a selectable character that has to be reachable when edited and cut/copied etc.

As I posted last month, I also think the hang character should be
guaranteed visible, at least in editing mode.
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2016Feb/0006.html

(But the reason Xidorn mentioned is reasonable too. I don't have good
idea which satisfies both things right now.)

> This is similar to text-indent, which creates layout overflow when negative,
>  so it’s not clear to me why hanging punctuation can’t behave the same way.

I understood that the negative text-indent creates an ink overflow,

http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=3851
because there are no scrollbars in this example (by [1]).

But CSS2 [2] seems saying that it creates an scrollable overflow, like you.
>  If the value of 'text-indent' is either negative or exceeds the width of the block, that first box, described above,
>  can overflow the block. The value of 'overflow' will affect whether such text that overflows the block is visible.

I couldn't find other clarification in css3-text and css3-overflow.

Is this a browser bug (or "implementation-specific limits"), or my
misunderstanding?

[1] http://logs.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/2016-01-31/#e645715
[2] https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#indentation-prop
----------------------------------------------------
Takao Baba (baba@bpsinc.jp)
Beyond Perspective Solutions Co., Ltd.
Tel: 03-6279-4320 Fax: 03-6279-4450
http://www.bpsinc.jp


On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Xidorn Quan <quanxunzhen@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:39 AM, David Hyatt <hyatt@apple.com> wrote:
>>
>> (6) The WG resolved overflow is ink overflow. I think it should be
>> scrollable overflow. I can elaborate on this if needed, but it’s a
>> selectable character that has to be reachable when edited and cut/copied
>> etc. Any designer is going to leave space for hanging punctuation if they
>> turn it on, so fears of scrollbars are unfounded IMO. It’s also an annoying
>> amount of additional work to treat that as ink overflow when the common
>> sense implementation just moves the line box (and line boxes are scrollable
>> overflow obviously). This is similar to text-indent, which creates layout
>> overflow when negative, so it’s not clear to me why hanging punctuation
>> can’t behave the same way.
>>
>> Regardless of ink vs. layout, the designer has to leave space for hanging
>> punctuation if they decide to use this feature, so I would prefer we go with
>> the more common sense implementation choice.
>
>
> The reason that we decided to make it an ink overflow is that, many
> punctuations in CJK are full-width while their ink just takes less than half
> of the space. It is especially true for Simplified Chinese and Japanese, for
> stop and comma. It means that, it is completely fine to have a space which
> is enough to show the ink but not enough from the metrics. Making hanging
> punctuation scrollable overflow could confuse people in this reasonable
> usecase.
>
> - Xidorn
Received on Sunday, 6 March 2016 05:33:54 UTC

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