[CSSWG] Minutes Telecon 2015-05-13

New York City F2F

  - Anyone planning to attend needs to make sure their name is on
      the wiki so that they can have a badge and wifi access.
  - There are also directions on the wiki for how to get to the
  - The agenda is light on topics, so everyone is encouraged to add

Publishing a new LC for Flexbox

  - RESOLVED: Publish a new LC of Flexbox

Clarifying 'justify-content' resolution

  - RESOLVED: 'stretch' and 'auto' compute to 'flex-start' on items
              with 'display: flex'

Refactoring Display

  - RESOLVED: Accept TabAtkins' proposal for Display (available here:
              with further explanation here:

grid-template-areas and dot sequences

  - RESOLVED: Accept proposal to allow multiple dots

Brackets for Grid Line Names

  - RESOLVED: Switch from parenthesis to brackets for grid line names.

Renaming 'default'

  - The bikeshedding will occur during the F2F with all the
      suggestions being gathered for that discussion.

Publication Status

  - The specs that are pending publication should start being
      published soon since ChrisL has worked out most of the
      problems that were holding them up.
  - Once publication happens, CSS3 UI will need review since the
      authors want to go to CR in six weeks.

Styling DOM Ranges

  - This work likely belongs as a part of the next level of CSS
      Pseudo and therefore shepazu will work with fantasai offline
      to integrate it.


  Rossen Atanassov
  Bert Bos
  Bo Campbell
  Adenilson Cavalcanti
  Alex Critchfield
  Elika Etemad
  Tony Graham
  Dael Jackson
  Brad Kemper
  Chris Lilley
  Peter Linss
  Mike Miller
  Edward O'Connor
  Liam Quin
  Florian Rivoal
  Andrey Rybka
  Doug Schepers
  Hyojin Song
  Alan Stearns
  Greg Whitworth
  Several Observers

  Tab Atkins
  David Baron
  Sanja Bonic
  Tantek Çelik
  Dave Cramer
  Daniel Glazman
  Anton Prowse
  Mike Sherov
  Ian Vollick
  Steve Zilles

  scribe: dael

  plinss: Let's get started.
  plinss: We have a few people who Zakim doesn't recognize. Would
          you update it? That would be great.
  plinss: Any last minute additions?
  shepazu: We have a couple of observers watching how the working
           group runs. If anyone has questions, we can talk
           afterwards, but I wanted to let you know.
  * shepazu notes that we did ask the chairs for permission
  <JohnMcLear> <- an observer fwiw

New York City F2F

  <andrey> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/new-york-2015
  plinss: We're light on agenda items, so please add items to the
  plinss: andrey, logistics?
  andrey: I wrote an explanation as to what you should do when you
          arrive so you don't get lost. You want to use the
          courtyard entrance.
  andrey: It's critical for me to get your name on the wiki since
          our security is tight. I could use the actual person from
          Apple. If it'll be last minute, please send me an e-mail.
          I don't want people without a badge and log in for wifi.
  hober: It'll be Simon from Apple.
  andrey: I put my email and phone on the page, so please contact me.
          Inside the building is a jungle. When you're at the front
          desk, take an elevator to the 6th and then we're on the
          28th floor. You have to go to the 29th floor and walk down.
  andrey: I think that's it.

  plinss: Any last minute questions or issues for the F2F?
  plinss: It looks like fantasai is calling in and we need her for
          the next three items.

Publishing a new LC for Flexbox

  <astearns> +1 to publish
  florian: The answer is yes.
  Rossen: What is there to talk about?
  plinss: Objections to publishing?

  RESOLVED: Publish a new LC of Flexbox

Clarifying 'justify-content' resolution

  fantasai: The issue with the resolution was that stretch would
            compute to itself but be treated as flex-start, but my
            proposal was that it would compute to flex-start and
            we'd revisit if there was a problem. It would get
            computed as the exact same behavior.
  fantasai: Proposal was since the current initial value is
            flex-start, we are changing it to auto in the box
            alignment and we were thinking it would be better if we
            had auto compute to flex-start so that it resolved the
            same value as an unset justify-content value.
  fantasai: There were reservations on doing the computation, but
            there were reservations about compat issues as well. It
            seemed easier for authors. That was the proposal, but it
            wasn't recorded that way so I wanted to see if there
            were issues.

  Florian: I'm for the proposal. I think in general it's a good
           thing to do the computing, but we need more tooling down
           the road to manage dependency and loops. But that's a
           tooling issue we should solve eventually. I don't think
           this is a bad design pattern. I'm all for it.
  <fantasai> https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/property-dependencies
  * fantasai it needs updating, but we have this page, too
  <Florian> fantasai: I know we have a wiki page, but the fact that
            it lags behind the specs is one reason why I would
            welcome tooling. (another reason is that bikeshed
            autogenerating inline dependency tables would be nice)

  plinss: To be clear. Stretch computes to flex-start?
  <fantasai> 'stretch' and 'auto' compute to 'flex-start' on items
             with 'display: flex'
  plinss: Okay.
  plinss: Any objections to that proposal?

  RESOLVED: 'stretch' and 'auto' compute to 'flex-start' on items
            with 'display: flex'

Refactoring Display

  plinss: We don't have TabAtkins, he nominated fantasai
  Florian: To everyone who is new to the topic, fantasai's message
           made it clearer than Tab's for me.
  <plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0098.html
  <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0119.html
  <fantasai> ^ my message

  fantasai: If you load my message it gives the proposed syntax. The
            idea is we have a flow value for display: inside and
  fantasai: This gives us a switch we've wanted for a long time to a
            BFC root.
  fantasai: This gives us all of the combinations. The things that
            participate by default are inline. This solves a lot of
            problems and we no longer have block-level. I think it's
            a good proposal and I suggest that we take it.

  Florian: It keeps the general concept of inside and outside. It's
           a better division of the values. I like it.
  plinss: In additions to a switch for BFC we wanted a switch for
          containing block. Does that make sense to fold in here?
  Rossen: Position-block?
  plinss: Yeah.
  fantasai: I think it should be separate because any type of box
            can be an abspos container. If we want to capture
            abspos, the thing we should tackle in the positioning
            draft, and we probably don't want it the same switch as
            controls internal contents. You might want to switch
            between grid and flex, but still want it to be an abspos
            capture. We can add that later if it needs to be folded
  Florian: That is more linked to the containment property than this
  plinss: Fair enough.
  plinss: Other comments?
  Rossen: I agree with fantasai. The positioning and layout should
          be separate and establishing positioning through whatever
          property we decide should be keep separate.

  plinss: Comments on the original proposal?
  Rossen: Original proposal sounds reasonable too.
  plinss: Any objections?

  RESOLVED: Accept TabAtkins proposal for Display (available here:
            with further explanation here:

  Rossen: Is this a spec we'll publish any time soom?
  fantasai: We need to go through another check to make sure it's in
            a consistent state, but we can do it soon. When do you
            need it by?
  Rossen: I don't necessarily need it, but it becomes relevant to
          other modules so I think it would be relevant to up the
          heartbeat of publication.
  fantasai: The main thing we've done is combine display: inside and
            outside and this came up. Now that we have this
            resolution we can publish an update in a couple of weeks.
  Rossen: That'll be great.

grid-template-areas and dot sequences

  <plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0473.html
  plinss: There was a proposal on www-style from François Remy
  fantasai: On the original template syntax each named template was
            a single letter. Then we had the issue of what is a
            letter and there was a proposal to change that to
            identifiers which we accepted. Originally if you place-
            held a spot but without a name it was a single dot, but
            this was a proposal that you allow a sequence of dots
            just so that it's more visible and fills up space.
  fantasai: This is reasonable to me unless there's backwards compat
  Rossen: I think this is a good proposal too. It definitely won't
          set us backwards.
  <astearns> I think it's fine too
  plinss: Anyone else? Objections?

  RESOLVED: Accept proposal to allow multiple dots

Brackets for Grid Line Names

  <plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0103.html
  fantasai: I was talking with astearns at the last F2F. Right now
            we're using parenthesis and he pointed out brackets
            would be easier to read instead of nested parenthesis.
            Seemed reasonable, so I suggested it on the mailing list.
  fantasai: I think TabAtkins is in favor here.
  fantasai: I have no strong opinion.
  Rossen: I can live with either.
  fantasai: Should we revisit when he's here?
  astearns: I don't think it matters much either way.
  <astearns> (but I have a slight preference for the brackets)

  plinss: There's a issue with backwards compat if anyone is using
          this already.
  Rossen: Is there any implementations of this?
  plinss: Good question.
  Rossen: We're not implementing it. For the time being it doesn't
          matter. As long as the syntax and behavior makes sense in
          the overall model, it should be fine. Once we get to
          implementation I'm sure we'll revisit a lot of it and I'm
          sure we won't be alone. For the time being let's move
          forward and accept.

  plinss: And this is grouping line names everywhere?
  fantasai: Yes.
  Rossen: Do we have any other incidents of this?
  plinss: I don't think we do anywhere.
  plinss: We use bare brackets as attribute selectors.
  fantasai: That's in selectors.
  plinss: Yeah.

  plinss: So. Objections to switching from parentheses to brackets
          for grid line names?

  RESOLVED: Switch from parenthesis to brackets for grid line names.

  plinss: That's the end of the agenda. Is there anything else?

Renaming 'default'

  Florian: We have a pending conversation about renaming 'default's.
           We may want to bikeshed.
  plinss: Anyone have strong contenders?
  Florian: I proposed 'default-value' which hasn't been shot down.
  Florian: There were other things. Using 'UA' or 'origin' or
           'reset'. There have been a lot of opinions and everyone
           has favorites.
  <BradK> I has 'clear' or 'cleared'
  fantasai: We need more brainstorming.
  Florian: Or pick something and move on.

  plinss: I'm happy to have a discussion if there's something to
          discuss. Do we have a short list of best candidates?
  Florian: I'm trying to remember which ones were like/dislike so no.
           Unless you just want mine on the short list :)
  plinss: It doesn't sound like we're getting traction. Maybe put it
          on the wiki for the F2F?
  fantasai: That sounds like a good topic.
  plinss: We can get champions for the top three and mud wrestle or

Publication Status

  fantasai: What's the status of CR publications? We have several in
            the queue. Variable, will-change, and maybe more.
  ChrisL: I'm working on them. I send you a thing in IRC back
          channels and I think we should be able to get the document
          you want tomorrow. It has had a lot of problems. It broke
          both pubrules systems.
  Florian: Same for UI?
  ChrisL: Yeah, they all broke the pubrules systems. I found some of
          the causes.

  Florian: Quick reminder to everyone that CSS3 UI is probably
           getting to what would would have called LC so please take
           time to review it.
  fantasai: When you post the announcement of the publication say we
            plan to take it to CR in X days .
  Florian: Yep, we will once ChrisL manages to publish, but I wanted
           to get everyone in the WG thinking on it.
  ChrisL: It should hopefully be for Thursday

  Florian: With to CR in "X days" should we discuss X?
  Florian: If the WG has reviewed I'm fine with short, but I'm not
           sure that's happened.
  fantasai: Do 6 weeks. That's F2F and recovery time.
  Florian: I'm okay with that.
  plinss: That's a reasonable fake-LC period.
  Florian: We're not ready to exit CR so there's no need to rush.
  plinss: We all know exiting takes a while.

  plinss: Unless anyone has anything else, that's it for the week.
  Florian: I have F2F topics, but nothing for call.

Styling DOM Ranges

  <shepazu> http://w3c.github.io/rangefinder/
  shepazu: I want to introduce styling DOM ranges. I wanted to make
           you guys aware.
  fantasai: In short we had vaguely talked about this. We'd do it
            through some way where we can name the ranges and select
            and you'd be restricted to ::selection styling
  shepazu: I think we've talked about that, but maybe not to the WG.
  shepazu: I wanted to make you aware that we have the web
           annotation WG with the range finder API. It's like a find
           in page where it would find a range and we want to style
           it. We talked about the mechanism; fantasai described it.

  shepazu: I'm wondering what the next steps to moving it forward
           would be. A formal proposal? Meeting?
  plinss: We need something we can look at. We can sort out later if
          it's stand alone or in a different spec.
  shepazu: Who should I contact about bringing this to the next
  Florian: Probably CSS Pseudo.
  <Florian> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/
  shepazu: And who is the editor?
  fantasai: Me.
  shepazu: I'll touch base offline.
  fantasai: It would probably be in the next level.
  shepazu: That's fine.

  plinss: That's it for the week. Safe travels. Please remember to
          keep the wiki updated and add topics to the agenda. See
          everyone next week.

Received on Thursday, 14 May 2015 00:16:50 UTC