- From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 20:16:22 -0400
- To: www-style@w3.org
New York City F2F
-----------------
- Anyone planning to attend needs to make sure their name is on
the wiki so that they can have a badge and wifi access.
- There are also directions on the wiki for how to get to the
meeting.
- The agenda is light on topics, so everyone is encouraged to add
items.
Publishing a new LC for Flexbox
-------------------------------
- RESOLVED: Publish a new LC of Flexbox
Clarifying 'justify-content' resolution
---------------------------------------
- RESOLVED: 'stretch' and 'auto' compute to 'flex-start' on items
with 'display: flex'
Refactoring Display
-------------------
- RESOLVED: Accept TabAtkins' proposal for Display (available here:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0098.html
with further explanation here:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0119.html)
grid-template-areas and dot sequences
-------------------------------------
- RESOLVED: Accept proposal to allow multiple dots
Brackets for Grid Line Names
----------------------------
- RESOLVED: Switch from parenthesis to brackets for grid line names.
Renaming 'default'
------------------
- The bikeshedding will occur during the F2F with all the
suggestions being gathered for that discussion.
Publication Status
------------------
- The specs that are pending publication should start being
published soon since ChrisL has worked out most of the
problems that were holding them up.
- Once publication happens, CSS3 UI will need review since the
authors want to go to CR in six weeks.
Styling DOM Ranges
------------------
- This work likely belongs as a part of the next level of CSS
Pseudo and therefore shepazu will work with fantasai offline
to integrate it.
===== FULL MINUTES BELOW ======
Present:
Rossen Atanassov
Bert Bos
Bo Campbell
Adenilson Cavalcanti
Alex Critchfield
Elika Etemad
Tony Graham
Dael Jackson
Brad Kemper
Chris Lilley
Peter Linss
Mike Miller
Edward O'Connor
Liam Quin
Florian Rivoal
Andrey Rybka
Doug Schepers
Hyojin Song
Alan Stearns
Greg Whitworth
Several Observers
Regrets:
Tab Atkins
David Baron
Sanja Bonic
Tantek Çelik
Dave Cramer
Daniel Glazman
Anton Prowse
Mike Sherov
Ian Vollick
Steve Zilles
scribe: dael
plinss: Let's get started.
plinss: We have a few people who Zakim doesn't recognize. Would
you update it? That would be great.
plinss: Any last minute additions?
shepazu: We have a couple of observers watching how the working
group runs. If anyone has questions, we can talk
afterwards, but I wanted to let you know.
* shepazu notes that we did ask the chairs for permission
<JohnMcLear> <- an observer fwiw
New York City F2F
-----------------
<andrey> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/new-york-2015
plinss: We're light on agenda items, so please add items to the
wiki.
plinss: andrey, logistics?
andrey: I wrote an explanation as to what you should do when you
arrive so you don't get lost. You want to use the
courtyard entrance.
andrey: It's critical for me to get your name on the wiki since
our security is tight. I could use the actual person from
Apple. If it'll be last minute, please send me an e-mail.
I don't want people without a badge and log in for wifi.
hober: It'll be Simon from Apple.
andrey: I put my email and phone on the page, so please contact me.
Inside the building is a jungle. When you're at the front
desk, take an elevator to the 6th and then we're on the
28th floor. You have to go to the 29th floor and walk down.
andrey: I think that's it.
plinss: Any last minute questions or issues for the F2F?
plinss: It looks like fantasai is calling in and we need her for
the next three items.
Publishing a new LC for Flexbox
-------------------------------
<astearns> +1 to publish
florian: The answer is yes.
Rossen: What is there to talk about?
plinss: Objections to publishing?
RESOLVED: Publish a new LC of Flexbox
Clarifying 'justify-content' resolution
---------------------------------------
fantasai: The issue with the resolution was that stretch would
compute to itself but be treated as flex-start, but my
proposal was that it would compute to flex-start and
we'd revisit if there was a problem. It would get
computed as the exact same behavior.
fantasai: Proposal was since the current initial value is
flex-start, we are changing it to auto in the box
alignment and we were thinking it would be better if we
had auto compute to flex-start so that it resolved the
same value as an unset justify-content value.
fantasai: There were reservations on doing the computation, but
there were reservations about compat issues as well. It
seemed easier for authors. That was the proposal, but it
wasn't recorded that way so I wanted to see if there
were issues.
Florian: I'm for the proposal. I think in general it's a good
thing to do the computing, but we need more tooling down
the road to manage dependency and loops. But that's a
tooling issue we should solve eventually. I don't think
this is a bad design pattern. I'm all for it.
<fantasai> https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/property-dependencies
* fantasai it needs updating, but we have this page, too
<Florian> fantasai: I know we have a wiki page, but the fact that
it lags behind the specs is one reason why I would
welcome tooling. (another reason is that bikeshed
autogenerating inline dependency tables would be nice)
plinss: To be clear. Stretch computes to flex-start?
<fantasai> 'stretch' and 'auto' compute to 'flex-start' on items
with 'display: flex'
plinss: Okay.
plinss: Any objections to that proposal?
RESOLVED: 'stretch' and 'auto' compute to 'flex-start' on items
with 'display: flex'
Refactoring Display
-------------------
plinss: We don't have TabAtkins, he nominated fantasai
Florian: To everyone who is new to the topic, fantasai's message
made it clearer than Tab's for me.
<plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0098.html
<fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0119.html
<fantasai> ^ my message
fantasai: If you load my message it gives the proposed syntax. The
idea is we have a flow value for display: inside and
flow-root.
fantasai: This gives us a switch we've wanted for a long time to a
BFC root.
fantasai: This gives us all of the combinations. The things that
participate by default are inline. This solves a lot of
problems and we no longer have block-level. I think it's
a good proposal and I suggest that we take it.
Florian: It keeps the general concept of inside and outside. It's
a better division of the values. I like it.
plinss: In additions to a switch for BFC we wanted a switch for
containing block. Does that make sense to fold in here?
Rossen: Position-block?
plinss: Yeah.
fantasai: I think it should be separate because any type of box
can be an abspos container. If we want to capture
abspos, the thing we should tackle in the positioning
draft, and we probably don't want it the same switch as
controls internal contents. You might want to switch
between grid and flex, but still want it to be an abspos
capture. We can add that later if it needs to be folded
in.
Florian: That is more linked to the containment property than this
one.
plinss: Fair enough.
plinss: Other comments?
Rossen: I agree with fantasai. The positioning and layout should
be separate and establishing positioning through whatever
property we decide should be keep separate.
plinss: Comments on the original proposal?
Rossen: Original proposal sounds reasonable too.
plinss: Any objections?
RESOLVED: Accept TabAtkins proposal for Display (available here:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0098.html
with further explanation here:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0119.html)
Rossen: Is this a spec we'll publish any time soom?
fantasai: We need to go through another check to make sure it's in
a consistent state, but we can do it soon. When do you
need it by?
Rossen: I don't necessarily need it, but it becomes relevant to
other modules so I think it would be relevant to up the
heartbeat of publication.
fantasai: The main thing we've done is combine display: inside and
outside and this came up. Now that we have this
resolution we can publish an update in a couple of weeks.
Rossen: That'll be great.
grid-template-areas and dot sequences
-------------------------------------
<plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0473.html
plinss: There was a proposal on www-style from François Remy
fantasai: On the original template syntax each named template was
a single letter. Then we had the issue of what is a
letter and there was a proposal to change that to
identifiers which we accepted. Originally if you place-
held a spot but without a name it was a single dot, but
this was a proposal that you allow a sequence of dots
just so that it's more visible and fills up space.
fantasai: This is reasonable to me unless there's backwards compat
issues.
Rossen: I think this is a good proposal too. It definitely won't
set us backwards.
<astearns> I think it's fine too
plinss: Anyone else? Objections?
RESOLVED: Accept proposal to allow multiple dots
Brackets for Grid Line Names
----------------------------
<plinss> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015May/0103.html
fantasai: I was talking with astearns at the last F2F. Right now
we're using parenthesis and he pointed out brackets
would be easier to read instead of nested parenthesis.
Seemed reasonable, so I suggested it on the mailing list.
fantasai: I think TabAtkins is in favor here.
fantasai: I have no strong opinion.
Rossen: I can live with either.
fantasai: Should we revisit when he's here?
astearns: I don't think it matters much either way.
<astearns> (but I have a slight preference for the brackets)
plinss: There's a issue with backwards compat if anyone is using
this already.
Rossen: Is there any implementations of this?
plinss: Good question.
Rossen: We're not implementing it. For the time being it doesn't
matter. As long as the syntax and behavior makes sense in
the overall model, it should be fine. Once we get to
implementation I'm sure we'll revisit a lot of it and I'm
sure we won't be alone. For the time being let's move
forward and accept.
plinss: And this is grouping line names everywhere?
fantasai: Yes.
Rossen: Do we have any other incidents of this?
plinss: I don't think we do anywhere.
plinss: We use bare brackets as attribute selectors.
fantasai: That's in selectors.
plinss: Yeah.
plinss: So. Objections to switching from parentheses to brackets
for grid line names?
RESOLVED: Switch from parenthesis to brackets for grid line names.
plinss: That's the end of the agenda. Is there anything else?
Renaming 'default'
------------------
Florian: We have a pending conversation about renaming 'default's.
We may want to bikeshed.
plinss: Anyone have strong contenders?
Florian: I proposed 'default-value' which hasn't been shot down.
Florian: There were other things. Using 'UA' or 'origin' or
'reset'. There have been a lot of opinions and everyone
has favorites.
<BradK> I has 'clear' or 'cleared'
fantasai: We need more brainstorming.
Florian: Or pick something and move on.
plinss: I'm happy to have a discussion if there's something to
discuss. Do we have a short list of best candidates?
Florian: I'm trying to remember which ones were like/dislike so no.
Unless you just want mine on the short list :)
plinss: It doesn't sound like we're getting traction. Maybe put it
on the wiki for the F2F?
fantasai: That sounds like a good topic.
plinss: We can get champions for the top three and mud wrestle or
something.
Publication Status
------------------
fantasai: What's the status of CR publications? We have several in
the queue. Variable, will-change, and maybe more.
ChrisL: I'm working on them. I send you a thing in IRC back
channels and I think we should be able to get the document
you want tomorrow. It has had a lot of problems. It broke
both pubrules systems.
Florian: Same for UI?
ChrisL: Yeah, they all broke the pubrules systems. I found some of
the causes.
Florian: Quick reminder to everyone that CSS3 UI is probably
getting to what would would have called LC so please take
time to review it.
fantasai: When you post the announcement of the publication say we
plan to take it to CR in X days .
Florian: Yep, we will once ChrisL manages to publish, but I wanted
to get everyone in the WG thinking on it.
ChrisL: It should hopefully be for Thursday
Florian: With to CR in "X days" should we discuss X?
Florian: If the WG has reviewed I'm fine with short, but I'm not
sure that's happened.
fantasai: Do 6 weeks. That's F2F and recovery time.
Florian: I'm okay with that.
plinss: That's a reasonable fake-LC period.
Florian: We're not ready to exit CR so there's no need to rush.
plinss: We all know exiting takes a while.
plinss: Unless anyone has anything else, that's it for the week.
Florian: I have F2F topics, but nothing for call.
Styling DOM Ranges
------------------
<shepazu> http://w3c.github.io/rangefinder/
shepazu: I want to introduce styling DOM ranges. I wanted to make
you guys aware.
fantasai: In short we had vaguely talked about this. We'd do it
through some way where we can name the ranges and select
and you'd be restricted to ::selection styling
shepazu: I think we've talked about that, but maybe not to the WG.
shepazu: I wanted to make you aware that we have the web
annotation WG with the range finder API. It's like a find
in page where it would find a range and we want to style
it. We talked about the mechanism; fantasai described it.
shepazu: I'm wondering what the next steps to moving it forward
would be. A formal proposal? Meeting?
plinss: We need something we can look at. We can sort out later if
it's stand alone or in a different spec.
shepazu: Who should I contact about bringing this to the next
stage.
Florian: Probably CSS Pseudo.
<Florian> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/
shepazu: And who is the editor?
fantasai: Me.
shepazu: I'll touch base offline.
fantasai: It would probably be in the next level.
shepazu: That's fine.
plinss: That's it for the week. Safe travels. Please remember to
keep the wiki updated and add topics to the agenda. See
everyone next week.
Received on Thursday, 14 May 2015 00:16:50 UTC