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RE: [css-fonts] proposal needed for synthesizing oblique fonts in vertical text

From: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:25:40 -0400
To: John Daggett <jdaggett@mozilla.com>, "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Message-ID: <A592E245B36A8949BDB0A302B375FB4E201D15A001@MAILR001.mail.lan>
> From: John Daggett [mailto:jdaggett@mozilla.com]
> > Good point, I missed this case, and I agree this is an issue for (2).
> This is why I'm saying I don't think there's a "correct" behavior, only options that all have
> undesirable side effects.

I agree with you. I don't think I ever said there's an option that works perfectly without any issues. I'm sorry if I sounded so before.

I'm trying to say, authors want Italic (slant), but there's no perfect answer, so let's find the most reasonable option. Is this point agreeable?

> > > But as everyone is saying, there really isn't a use case for
> > > vertical italic Japanese text runs
> >
> > The use is less common, but use case does exist. "Less common" is not
> > equal to "there really isn't a use case." It's used in Harry Potter.
> > It's used in several books in light-novel style[2].	
> Koji, could you post *examples* of these?  The only thing you've posted are testcases
> which makes it difficult to assess what the underlying use case is.  Are these really
> *italics* or the use of Japanese obliquing (斜体、shatai)?

They're oblique (Shatai), sorry if it was confusing, I thought it was clear to you and used ambiguous word.

Posted examples here[1].

> What is the use case of italic dashes in Japanese vertical text runs?!?!?

Issue #2.4 of the post[2] is talking about Italic dashes in Latin text within Japanese vertical books. You agree on this use case, don't you?

2em-dashes are common in Japanese as you know. When they appear in Japanese books, that's the issue #2.5. Is this reasonable when combine with examples above?

> The "severe" issues you refer to aren't realistic usage at all, I don't think we should spend
> lots of time fretting about feature combinations that never occur in practice.

Are the above enough to say they're real, or do you need anything more?

> In particular, I think it's not a good idea to try to achieve Japanese obliquing text effects
> by shoehorning a very limited version of these effects into the behavior of 'font-style'.
> We both agree that it causes an inconsistency for vertical text runs of Latin italics and that's
> something I can imagine non-Japanese authors actually using.
> In his comments on synthetic italics, Taro makes a similar distinction [1]:

Allow me to confirm, are we arguing which is better in your picture[3]? Or, are we arguing whether to slant or not?

I assume the former when you proposed the picture[3]. If the latter, we need to discuss that first.

I heard Taro's opinion from him too, and I also know other two font designers I know agree with him. I know other typographers also agree. Whether slant should be allowed or not is an issue where font designers/typographers do not agree with authors. I prioritize authors over professionals. You agreed on that point when you proposed the picture[3], didn't you?
[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013May/0032.html

[2] http://koji.ec/archives/32

[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013May/att-0027/synthetic-italics-tategaki.png

Received on Wednesday, 15 May 2013 12:26:20 UTC

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