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Re: [text-decor-4] Emphasis marks and fonts

From: MURAKAMI Shinyu <murakami@antenna.co.jp>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 02:33:33 +0900
To: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Cc: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>, CJK discussion <public-i18n-cjk@w3.org>, 'WWW International' <www-international@w3.org>
Message-Id: <20130204023332.BF2F.C598BCD7@antenna.co.jp>
fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net> wrote on 2013/02/03 6:03:50
> On 02/01/2013 10:33 PM, MURAKAMI Shinyu wrote:
> >
> > We (Antenna House) implemented this behavior by default and also
> > implemented the -ah-text-emphasis-offset property that specifies
> > minimum offset between emphasis dots and the base text.
> >
> > I put an example:
> > http://nadita.com/test/ruby/ruby-kenten.html
> >
> > The result rendered by Antenna House Formatter:
> > http://nadita.com/test/ruby/ruby-kenten-ahf.png
> When we were talking with Ken Lunde at Adobe, we were told that the font
> of emphasis marks never changes, that they are just shapes like list
> item bullets are shapes, and shouldn't change by font. He also noted that
> fonts with these glyphs are not consistent in how they are sized, which
> makes it hard to rely on them. This was why they used the Kenten font.

I agree that the emphasis marks are similar to the list item bullets.
However, the CSS spec doesn't say that they shouldn't change by font.

CSS2.1 says "Glyphs are specified with disc, circle, and square. Their 
exact rendering depends on the user agent."

§5.3 of CSS Counter Styles Level 3 says:
| The following stylesheet fragment provides the normative 
| definition of these predefined counter styles: 
| @counter-style disc {
| 	system: cyclic;
| 	symbols: \2022;
| 	/* • */
| 	suffix: '';
| }
| @counter-style circle {
| 	system: cyclic;
| 	symbols: \25E6;
| 	/* ◦ */
| 	suffix: '';
| }
| @counter-style square {
| 	system: cyclic;
| 	symbols: \25FE;
| 	/* ◾ */
| 	suffix: '';
| }
| Alternately, a browser may render these styles using a 
| browser-generated image instead of the defined character. 
| If so, the image must look similar to the character, and 
| must be sized to attractively fill a 1em by 1em square.

I tested some browsers and found that IE9 and IE10 render the
defined characters and the glyphs are changed by font,
and other browsers render images that are not changed by font.
(I believe the CSS spec allows both.)

I understand that the list item bullets (disc, circle, square) 
can be font-independent, but other list item types, counter or 
<string>, cannot. The list marker text must be rendered with the
font specified on the list-item or the ::marker pseudo-element.

> But I noticed you also have quite a few properties to control the emphasis
> marks' fonts. Are they used much? Is this something you think we need to
> investigate for L4?

We have currently font properties for emphasis marks,
(-ah-text-emphasis-font-family, -ah-text-emphasis-font-size, etc),
that are important when <string> value is specified in the
text-emphasis-style property.

If we have ::text-emphasis pseudo-element, it would be better 
than defining text-emphasis-font-* things.

For example, a UA may have the following default style sheet:

::text-emphasis {
  font-family: KentenGeneric;
  font-size: 50%;


Shinyu Murakami
Antenna House
Received on Sunday, 3 February 2013 17:33:58 UTC

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