- From: Ambrose LI <ambrose.li@gmail.com>
- Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 16:09:56 -0500
- To: Thomas Phinney <tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu>
- Cc: Brad Kemper <brad.kemper@gmail.com>, MasaFuji <masa@fuji.email.ne.jp>, www-style list <www-style@w3.org>
I am not so sure that the original question was even talking about artificially condensing and expanding fonts. But supposing that it was, maybe we should at least be aware that real condensed and expanded fonts generally do not even exist in the CJK world, and the only way we can achieve any variation in width at all is artificially. 2011/1/15 Thomas Phinney <tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu>: > We can disagree about what's desirable (although there would certainly be a > majority of typographers sharing my view). But I never argued that you > shouldn't have the option of getting the behavior you want. I'm saying that > at the very least, what I am calling the typographically "correct" behavior > should be *also available*, else the whole feature is made dangerous for > those who share my POV. > A separate question is which behavior ought to be the default. > Regards, > > T > > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Brad Kemper <brad.kemper@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> "Them" meaning condensed fonts, whether synthesized or separate faces. >> I don't want my design turned into junk either. But that is what would >> happen if I am using condensing to achieve a certain typographic color or >> distinction from another non-condensed block of text, and the UA decides not >> to even try to give it to me, just because the user doesn't have the exact >> right font. >> I have come to expect users to not have the right font. I am more >> concerned about the macro differences in the page than about the micro >> differences of the font that most won't notice. >> >> >> Brad Kemper >> On Jan 15, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Thomas Phinney <tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu> >> wrote: >> >> "I understand that distorted fonts are not ideal, but I think that should. >> Just be an expected caveat of using them." >> What is "them"? We're not starting from a point of using distorted fonts, >> we're starting with talking condensed and extended fonts: these could >> *either* be typographically good (real) or cruddy (distorted). I don't >> accept the argument that user agents should be free to turn my design into >> junk. >> At the very least there must be some way to ask the user agent to only >> return real fonts, not distorted ones. One good use case for this is that >> the user does have a condensed face, but because it doesn't exactly match >> the *degree* of condensed-ness being requested, they get a distorted font >> instead. >> Cheers, >> T >> >> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Brad Kemper <brad.kemper@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> I understand that distorted fonts are not ideal, but I think that should. >>> Just be an expected caveat of using them. As a designer, if I ask for a >>> condensed font, then I expect it to be narrower than a non-condensed >>> version, even if that means synthesizing when condensed versions of the >>> typeface are not available (which I also expect to be far more common on the >>> Web). >>> >>> >>> Brad Kemper >>> On Jan 14, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Thomas Phinney <tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Speaking as a typographer here: >>> My concern is that distorted fonts are considered typographically "bad >>> form" and the distorted shapes look lousy. The default should be to NOT do >>> artificially scaled expanding/condensing, with some option to turn that >>> behavior on. >>> T >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 6:30 PM, MasaFuji <masa@fuji.email.ne.jp> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'd like to expand the values of font-stretch property as like as >>>> font-size property. >>>> >>>> Name: font-stretch >>>> Value: <absolute-stretch> | <relative-stretch> | <percentage> >>>> | inherit >>>> Initial: normal >>>> Applies to: all elements >>>> Inherited: yes >>>> Percentages: refer to normal element's ratio >>>> Media: visual >>>> Computed Value; as specified >>>> >>>> Basically, this property indicates the desired font-stretch of glyphs >>>> from the font, in other words, the 'font-stretch' property selects a normal, >>>> condensed, or expanded face from a font family. It will be happy to Latin >>>> font families which have a various type of condensed or expanded font. When >>>> a font does not exist for a given width and is scalable in size, it will be >>>> useful the font-stretch gives a ratio of scaling in the inline progression >>>> direction. For scalable fonts, the font-stretch is a scale factor applied to >>>> the EM unit of the font. Values have the following meanings: >>>> >>>> <absolute-ratio> >>>> An <absolute-ratio> keyword refers to an entry in a table of >>>> font-stretch ratios computed and kept by the UA. Possible values are: >>>> >>>> [ normal | ultra-condensed | extra-condensed | condensed | >>>> semi-condensed | semi-expanded | expanded | extra-expanded | ultra-expanded >>>> ] >>>> >>>> Absolute keyword values have the following ordering, from narrowest to >>>> widest. The following table provides a sample of user agent's guideline for >>>> the absolute-size scaling factor. Some user agent may use a scale which >>>> increase geometrically. >>>> >>>> Value Description % of normal >>>> ----------------------------------- >>>> 1 Ultra-condensed 50 >>>> 2 Extra-condensed 62.5 >>>> 3 Condensed 75 >>>> 4 Semi-condensed 87.5 >>>> 5 Medium (normal) 100 >>>> 6 Semi-expanded 112.5 >>>> 7 Expanded 125 >>>> 8 Extra-expanded 150 >>>> 9 Ultra-expanded 200 >>>> >>>> <relative- ratio> >>>> A <relative-ratio> keyword is interpreted relative to the table of >>>> font-stretch ratios and the font-stretch ratio of the parent element. >>>> Possible values are: >>>> >>>> [ wider | narrower ] >>>> >>>> For example, if the parent element has a font-stretch ratio of 'normal' >>>> a value of 'wider' will make the font-stretch ratio of the current element >>>> be 'wider'. If the parent element's ratio is not close to a table entry, the >>>> user agent is free to interpolate between table entries or round off to the >>>> closest one. The user agent may have to extrapolate table values if the >>>> numerical value goes beyond keywords. >>>> >>>> <percentage> >>>> A percentage value specifies a font-stretch ratio to the normal >>>> font-stretch ratio. Use of percentage values leads to more robust and >>>> cascadable style sheets. >>>> >>>> ************************ >>>> Msahiro Fujishima >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, >>> somewhere, may be happy.” >>> —H.L. Mencken >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, >> somewhere, may be happy.” >> —H.L. Mencken >> > > > > -- > “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, > somewhere, may be happy.” > —H.L. Mencken > > -- cheers, -ambrose does anyone know how to fix Snow Leopard? it broke input method switching and is causing many typing mistakes so it is very annoying
Received on Saturday, 15 January 2011 21:10:24 UTC