Re: [css3-font] Extension of font-stretch property

We can disagree about what's desirable (although there would certainly be a
majority of typographers sharing my view). But I never argued that you
shouldn't have the option of getting the behavior you want. I'm saying that
at the very least, what I am calling the typographically "correct" behavior
should be *also available*, else the whole feature is made dangerous for
those who share my POV.

A separate question is which behavior ought to be the default.

Regards,

T

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Brad Kemper <brad.kemper@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Them" meaning condensed fonts, whether synthesized or separate faces.
>
> I don't want my design turned into junk either. But that is what would
> happen if I am using condensing to achieve a certain typographic color or
> distinction from another non-condensed block of text, and the UA decides not
> to even try to give it to me, just because the user doesn't have the exact
> right font.
>
> I have come to expect users to not have the right font. I am more concerned
> about the macro differences in the page than about the micro differences of
> the font that most won't notice.
>
>
> Brad Kemper
>
> On Jan 15, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Thomas Phinney <tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
>
> "I understand that distorted fonts are not ideal, but I think that should.
> Just be an expected caveat of using them."
>
> What is "them"? We're not starting from a point of using distorted fonts,
> we're starting with talking condensed and extended fonts: these could
> *either* be typographically good (real) or cruddy (distorted). I don't
> accept the argument that user agents should be free to turn my design into
> junk.
>
> At the very least there must be some way to ask the user agent to only
> return real fonts, not distorted ones. One good use case for this is that
> the user does have a condensed face, but because it doesn't exactly match
> the *degree* of condensed-ness being requested, they get a distorted font
> instead.
>
> Cheers,
>
> T
>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Brad Kemper < <brad.kemper@gmail.com>
> brad.kemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I understand that distorted fonts are not ideal, but I think that should.
>> Just be an expected caveat of using them. As a designer, if I ask for a
>> condensed font, then I expect it to be narrower than a non-condensed
>> version, even if that means synthesizing when condensed versions of the
>> typeface are not available (which I also expect to be far more common on the
>> Web).
>>
>>
>> Brad Kemper
>>
>> On Jan 14, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Thomas Phinney < <tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu>
>> tphinney@cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Speaking as a typographer here:
>>
>> My concern is that distorted fonts are considered typographically "bad
>> form" and the distorted shapes look lousy. The default should be to NOT do
>> artificially scaled expanding/condensing, with some option to turn that
>> behavior on.
>>
>> T
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 6:30 PM, MasaFuji < <masa@fuji.email.ne.jp><masa@fuji.email.ne.jp>
>> masa@fuji.email.ne.jp> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to expand the values of font-stretch property as like as
>>> font-size property.
>>>
>>> Name:            font-stretch
>>> Value:           <absolute-stretch> | <relative-stretch> | <percentage> |
>>> inherit
>>> Initial:         normal
>>> Applies to:      all elements
>>> Inherited:       yes
>>> Percentages:     refer to normal element's ratio
>>> Media:           visual
>>> Computed Value;  as specified
>>>
>>> Basically, this property indicates the desired font-stretch of glyphs
>>> from the font, in other words, the 'font-stretch' property selects a normal,
>>> condensed, or expanded face from a font family. It will be happy to Latin
>>> font families which have a various type of condensed or expanded font. When
>>> a font does not exist for a given width and is scalable in size, it will be
>>> useful the font-stretch gives a ratio of scaling in the inline progression
>>> direction. For scalable fonts, the font-stretch is a scale factor applied to
>>> the EM unit of the font. Values have the following meanings:
>>>
>>> <absolute-ratio>
>>>  An <absolute-ratio> keyword refers to an entry in a table of
>>> font-stretch ratios computed and kept by the UA. Possible values are:
>>>
>>>  [ normal | ultra-condensed | extra-condensed | condensed |
>>> semi-condensed | semi-expanded | expanded | extra-expanded | ultra-expanded
>>> ]
>>>
>>> Absolute keyword values have the following ordering, from narrowest to
>>> widest. The following table provides a sample of user agent's guideline for
>>> the absolute-size scaling factor. Some user agent may use a scale which
>>> increase geometrically.
>>>
>>> Value   Description     % of normal
>>> -----------------------------------
>>> 1       Ultra-condensed  50
>>> 2       Extra-condensed  62.5
>>> 3       Condensed        75
>>> 4       Semi-condensed   87.5
>>> 5       Medium (normal)  100
>>> 6       Semi-expanded    112.5
>>> 7       Expanded         125
>>> 8       Extra-expanded   150
>>> 9       Ultra-expanded   200
>>>
>>> <relative- ratio>
>>>  A <relative-ratio> keyword is interpreted relative to the table of
>>> font-stretch ratios and the font-stretch ratio of the parent element.
>>> Possible values are:
>>>
>>>  [ wider | narrower ]
>>>
>>> For example, if the parent element has a font-stretch ratio of 'normal' a
>>> value of 'wider' will make the font-stretch ratio of the current element be
>>> 'wider'. If the parent element's ratio is not close to a table entry, the
>>> user agent is free to interpolate between table entries or round off to the
>>> closest one. The user agent may have to extrapolate table values if the
>>> numerical value goes beyond keywords.
>>>
>>> <percentage>
>>>  A percentage value specifies a font-stretch ratio to the normal
>>> font-stretch ratio. Use of percentage values leads to more robust and
>>> cascadable style sheets.
>>>
>>> ************************
>>> Msahiro Fujishima
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone,
>>  somewhere, may be happy.”
>>  —H.L. Mencken
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone,
>  somewhere, may be happy.”
>  —H.L. Mencken
>
>
>


-- 
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone,
 somewhere, may be happy.”
 —H.L. Mencken