Re: [CSS21] bidi, text-align, and list markers

[+adil]

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Markus Ernst <derernst@gmx.ch> wrote:
> > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> >> Datum: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:28:07 -0700
> >> Von: "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>
> >
> >> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Ambrose LI <ambrose.li@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > On 2 June 2010 14:12, Alan Gresley <alan@css-class.com> wrote:
> >> >> I disagree to regarding the placement of the list marker. For Boris'
> >> >> example.
> >> >>
> >> >>    * 123 WERBEH
> >> >>    * latin latin
> >> >>    * latin latin
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> To achieve this, an author can use a child element.
> >> >>
> >> >> <ul>
> >> >>  <li><span dir="rtl">HEBREW 123</span></li>
> >> >>  <li>latin latin</li>
> >> >>  <li>latin latin</li>
> >> >> </ul>
> >> >
> >> > But wouldn't it be very counterintuitive to have <li dir=rtl> mean
> >> > something different than <li><span dir=rtl> ?
> >> >
> >> > As an uninformed author (i.e., one that is not following this list
> >> > closely), I find it very surprising that I'll have to use a child
> >> > element when I can set the direction in the list item.
> >>
> >> I find it relatively clear.  The ::marker is a child of the <li>, so
> >> @dir on the <li> affects it, but @dir on a child of the <li> doesn't.
> >
> > This is certainly true from a technical POV, but for me as an author it
> does not make sense if list markers switch positions inside a list. Treating
> markers as children of the <li> element might be sensible to make them
> accessible for styling and such things, but from a non-technical POV they
> rather look like being a property of the list than a child of the list item.
> I agree with Ambrose that it would be more intuitive for markers to behave
> consistently across the whole <ol> or <ul>.
>
> *All* other properties of the ::marker come directly from the
> list-item, though.  Color, for example, or list-style-type (we usually
> set the latter on the list container, because it inherits down the
> list-items).  It would be odd for just direction to work differently.
> It would be even odder, imo, for 'outside' markers to act differently
> from 'inside' markers (the latter, presumably without controversy,
> obviously pays attention to the direction of the list-item).
>
> Other things in CSS depend on markers acting like they're tied to the
> list-item, not the list container.  Frex, if you float something next
> to a list such that the contents of one of the list-items get shoved
> out of the way, the marker follows.  If you put a margin on a
> list-item, moving it away from the content-edge of the container, the
> marker follows.
>
> Markers are treated as part of the list-item for every single property
> that can possible discriminate between the two situations.  It would
> be *extremely* weird and non-intuitive for a single property to buck
> that and act some other way.
>
> ~TJ
>
>