W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > September 2009

[CSSWG] Minutes and Resolutions 2009-09-23

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:31:36 -0700
Message-ID: <4ABAA1C8.301@inkedblade.net>
To: www-style@w3.org

   - RESOLVED: Keep image-fit and image-position property names, explain rationale to SVG.

   Also discussed test suites; conclusions follow:

   - RESOLVED: New (more realistic) deadline for test submission for CSS2.1 is 15 Jan 2010.
               After this deadline submitted tests will be accepted for interop testing,
               but not for the CR->PR test reports.
   - RESOLVED: After 15 Jan 2010, each vendor must run all submitted tests in the test
               suite and report back on any problems with the tests. The deadline for the
               first iteration of this is 15 February 2010. The deadline for the second
               iteration is 15 March 2010.

   - We will encourage and track individual human reviews of tests, and these tests will
     have a higher confidence rating. However, once a contributor has demonstrated a
     consistent level of competence, that contributor's test submissions will be included
     in the above process even without individual test review.

   - Goal is to have a preliminary test coverage report by TPAC so that we can identify
     and plug holes in our test coverage.

   Status report and work remaining:

    - Arron and fantasai have organized the test suite repository. Expect to check in all
      submitted tests within the next week or two.

    - Repository currently has ~8000 tests; final estimate ~10,000 tests. dbaron points
      out that many of the tests from MSFT are too divided and should be merged.

    - Test suite build and indexing scripts need some work to handle directory restructuring.
      (An HP contractor worked on this last year. Current code, along with a junk test
       collection for testing, is in <http://test.csswg.org/svn/build-test/>. This will
       build a test coverage report once set up correctly)

    - We'll need the new browser test harness to be set up for production use after Jan 15th.
      Unknown what is required for this; HP leveraged MWI harness to build a prototype, but
      the system is currently unowned.
      (Design docs, prototype, and current (PHP) code linked from

====== Full minutes below ======

   CÚsar Acebal
   Tab Atkins
   David Baron
   Bert Bos
   Elika Etemad
   Daniel Glazman
   Brad Kemper
   Peter Linss
   Steve Zilles

<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-CSS-irc
ScribeNick: fantasai


   <Bert> http://www.w3.org/mid/A56057A4896BEC4BA13EE4C45CEB4FED2B7F7D19E6@GVW0538EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net
   Peter: Anything to add to agenda?


   Peter: We have a wiki page for proposed topics, please add topics
   <glazou> TPAC wiki page http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2009

   Peter: There's a question of what we need for facilities
   * dbaron hopes the parking at the meeting hotel is free
   Bert: Only need to know whether we need a phone or a flip chart
   Steve: Is there a whiteboard? We need something to write on
   glazou reads out equip list: just chairs for members, network, and
     LCD projector
   Steve: So we need a flip chart
   glazou: Do we need a phone?
   Steve: Ask by email?
   Tab: I would like to call in, as I can't make it in person
   ACTION Daniel to ask how many members will need to call in

   Daniel: Was thinking of arranging a meeting of present and former CSSWG
           members for dinner on Sunday
   Bert, Steve in favor
   Daniel: So Sunday 7pm before TPAC in lobby of hotel
<Zakim> +mauro

   Bert might not be there quite yet
   <dbaron> arrivals to SFO from Europe are unlikely to get in that
            late unless you have to change on the east coast
   Peter: Any other items for TPAC?
   <dbaron> of course, if you're going to SJC, you probably have to
            change somewhere...
   Steve: Does anyone have plans for dinner on Monday night?
   Steve: We can do that on the fly at the meeting
   <dbaron> hopefully we'll have enough cars to transport people
   <Bert> I won't have a car. (Plan to stay at conference hotel.)
   * plinss should have a car (if HP will let me come...)
   * glazou plinss, Bert, I just made request for flip chart + polycom

CSS2.1 Test Suite Deadlines

   Peter: dbaron sent out an email about this
   <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JulSep/0101.html
   dbaron: Back in June we agreed the deadline for submission of css2.1
           tests would be last week
   dbaron: I did submit a whole bunch of tests
   dbaron: But it seems the deadline should be at a point after we have a
           list of what we have
   dbaron: Certainly getting a list of all the tests we have blocks getting
   dbaron: for which we have another deadline in 3 months
   Peter: Do we have more tests to submit, or are we just waiting to plug
          in the holes?
   fantasai: We also have e.g. bz, who wants to submit tests for issues
             we haven't resolved yet
   dbaron: We also have contributors who would want to submit tests, but
           want to know what tests we don't have yet so they can write those
   Peter: Sounds like the primary issue here is getting a single list of
          what tests we have and what tests we need.
   <dbaron> yep
   Peter: How do we do that?
   Steve: Does it make sense to have part of our F2F be a review of test
   fantasai: no

   fantasai: On Monday, Arron and I did some organization of the test suite
   fantasai: Next step is to check in all the tests that have been submitted.
   fantasai: Then we need to index them.
   fantasai: We have a script that indexes tests, but it currently it has some
             limitations and needs some work
   fantasai: Also need to check that the submitted tests have the relevant
   fantasai: We may have this done by TPAC, maybe not.  Hope to have it done
             at least by December.

   glazou: How many tests do we have now?
   <glazou> find . -type f | wc
   <dbaron> or really: find . type f | wc -l
   fantasai: I'm getting 16,000 files.
   <glazou> find . -type f | grep -v svn | wc
   Tab: You're getting a lot of files in ".svn" directories
   <fantasai> ~8000 tests
   fantasai: 8000 tests
   fantasai: And I haven't even put in a lot of the tests submitted over the
             past 6 months.
   fantasai: So probably close to 10,000.
   glazou: We need to release CSS 2.1 as REC in the charter timeline, and
           the number of test reviews we have on the radar is scary.
   fantasai: We should at least have all the tests needing review in one
             place by TPAC.
   fantasai: I'll try to get a coverage report by TPAC.
   fantasai: At that point, we'll at least be able to see where we don't
             have much coverage.
   fantasai: The one thing there is that Hixie's tests haven't been checked
             in yet, and they don't have the metadata.
   fantasai: Arron has reviewed Hixie's tests and made a list of what metadata
             they should have.
   fantasai: If Arron could work on that we'd have a much more realistic summary.
   fantasai: Actually, they might have the metadata.  I don't remember.
   peterl: Sounds like by TPAC timeframe, we'll have a better handle on where
           we are.

   peterl: Do we want to shift the deadline for contributions to...?
   fantasai: What does the deadline mean?
   dbaron: It means either we won't accept them until after implementation
           reports, or we're branching the test suite
   dbaron: That's what I think it should mean anyway
   fantasai: After we do any implementation reports, or after we do the
             implementation reports that pass
   dbaron: after CSS2.1 reaches PR
   Peter: When do we want the deadline?
   fantasai suggests February
   Peter: That seems kinda late
   Peter: We need to be producing implementation reports by early spring
   Peter: end of year?
   fantasai: Jan 15, so people have time to get back from the holidays
   RESOLVED: New deadline Jan 15th for test contributions to CR->PR set of
             tests (later contributions accepted for interop tests)
   <dbaron> Peter: so March 15 for reviews?
   Peter: Anything else on this topic?
   Bert: what do we do with the snapshots on the test page?
   fantasai: keep them, hopefully make a new one by December (to make sure the
             index scripts are working)

   <glazou> uuuuurgh, 10,000 tests and 173 days that's ~58 tests reviewed per
            day, 7 days per week
   dbaron: We don't need to necessarily hold very strict review standards
   dbaron: In some cases, checking that they pass in a browser they should
           pass in and fail in a browser they should fail in is sufficient
   glazou: For simple tests, yes, but when you're dealing with e.g. margin
   dbaron: fwiw I started reviewing some of the tests I was actioned to review
   dbaron: and one of my comments was that these 500 tests should be collapsed
           into one
   dbaron: There are some cases where there are more tests than necessary
   glazou: I'm really afraid that this test suite is going to be the gordion
           knot of our spec
   glazou: I don't want it to be a blocking factor.
   glazou: I'm scared
   Steve: Does that suggest we put the test suite up and ask the browser vendors
          to run it and come back with the tests that they doubt?
   dbaron: That's one of the ways we've dealt with other test suites in the past
   peter: That's not a bad approach in general. Assume they're good, and if
          there's a statistically-high number of complaints
   peter: then look into that
   fantasai: I think that's fine, but also if there are some tests that have
             been manually reviewed we should keep track of that
   fantasai: That's valuable work, and we should be tracking it
   Peter: Agreed
   * glazou that's also 2.4 tests per hour, 7/24 :-)
   <bradk> Are there some tests that can be processed automatically, e.g. by
           detecting the color red?
   glazou: That suggests we have to cancel our general review of all tests
   fantasai: That depends on the contributor. For some contributors, I would
             not accept their tests unless manually-reviewed
   dbaron: Also, even though we aren't going to require manual review, we
           should still encourage them to review them

   Steve: If we're doing this then we should also have a deadline by which
          everyone should have run the tests
   Steve: Running them by March 14th won't get us feedback
   Peter: We should expect them to be run as soon as we've closed off the tests
          for contributions
   Glazou: So we should have a Feb 15th deadline for the first run
   Glazou: and then we have a chance to fix the tests and run them again by
           March 15
   Peter: We'll need multiple iterations
   <bradk> crowd-sourcing some tests?
   Peter: we have a framework for running the tests, right?
   fantasai: We have it, but it's still set up as a prototype
   fantasai: We'll have to set it up again after the Jan 15th deadline
   fantasai: I don't know how to set it up
   fantasai: We have to pass it data from the test suite indexing scripts
   fantasai: Dom might know how to set it up
   fantasai: We can also use it to report which tests have problems
   fantasai: There are two things that need to work before we can use the harness
   fanatasai: The harness scripts themselves, and also the indexing scripts,
              which feed data to the harness
   fantasai: If these are working by Jan 15th, it might take maybe a week to
             get things set up
   fantasai: if not, then I don't know

image-fit and image-position

   howcome: We'd like to use it for other things like video
   howcome: We have a tentative resolution to combine them into a 'fit' property
   howcome: But I don't like that solution
   <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Sep/0188.html
   howcome: I liked the suggestion of content-fit and content-position
   howcome: They plan to use it for the whole SVG canvas
   Tab: I'm fine with content-fit and content-position, and I think they
        should be separate properties
   Tab: The only problem is that it looks like a sub-property of 'content'
   fantasai: I think content-fit is more confusing, because I could think it
             applies to text content
   dbaron: I think a property that applies to image can apply to other
           image-like things such as video
   Steve: if you said picture, then I'd go with it
   Steve: they're all pictures
   Bert: Picture is not a bad name  if we can go with that
   howcome: if picture and image are the same, we should go with image since
            that's what we use on the web
   Tab: If 'content' can create a replaced element when given a url, then it
        might make sense
   Steve: replacement-fit?
   fantasai: doesn't make sense for SVG. Also nobody outside this WG will
             have any idea what it means
   * fantasai thinks image-fit and image-position are the best names we have
              so far
   howcome: If it's between image-fit and content-fit I suggest we lean towards
            content-fit for reasons of diplomacy
   Steve: That's a first
   Bert: I don't understand what SVG needs this for
   fantasai: mapping preserveAspectRatio to CSS
   * alexmog managed to join just in time for the last item on the agenda...
   Bert: My impression is that content-fit would mean that anything that is
         inserted as part of the 'content' property
   Bert: That's not the impression I get. 'image-' would work better
   Brad: I agree. When I think of content I think of the content-box
   <glazou> replaced-element-fit :)
   howcome: We could explain to SVG why we want to keep image-
   Steve: Someone explained that the name should be relevant to what people
          see, not the underlying architecture
   Steve: In that sense image makes more sense than content
   RESOLVED: Keep image-fit and image-position as names, explain rationale to SVG
   ACTION: fantasai discuss with SVG
   * Bert image, graphic, picture, figure, illustration, object...

Meeting closed.

<TabAtkins> Could someone ask Hyatt to come by soon for gradients?
Received on Wednesday, 23 September 2009 22:32:32 UTC

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