- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:32:42 -0700
- To: www-style@w3.org
Present:
David Baron
Bert Bos
John Daggett
Arron Eicholz
Elika Etemad
Daniel Glazman
Sylvain Galineau
Molly Holzschlag
Håkon Wium Lie
Chris Lilley
Alex Mogilevsky
David Singer (partial, via telephone)
Anne van Kesteren
Steve Zilles
<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-CSS-irc
GCPM
----
Scribe: Sylvain
howcome: at last f2f, changes to the draft included: image res property,
list of features for WD
howcome: i proposed to drop anything that has to do with moving elements
howcome: floating into footnotes remain
howcome: moving elements may conflict with generated content
howcome: what's left now is mostly implemented by two UAs
howcome: Prince and Antenna House
(howcome showing updated GCPM spec)
howcome: dropping moving elements e.g. target-text
howcome: one issue is what do we do with advanced multicolumn features
since no one has implemented it
discussion of CMYK and whether it makes sense for publishing
howcome: this is customer requirement to produce PDFs for instance
chrisl: this should really be called device-cmyk
chrisl: there is a standard to specify color profiles
ACTION: ChrisL review GCPM CMYK (section 16) and suggest changes/improvements
howcome: note that character substitution (text-replace) "applies only to batch processors"
<dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-gcpm/#text-replace
szilles, others: what is a batch processor ?
glazman, chrisl: non-interactive agent
howcome: note that "This property is evaluated after the content property
and before text-transform....it is applied after the white-space
property"
glazman: this is useful for localization. but is it style ?
glazman: why not keep the feature, remove the batch processor qualifier
and put it at risk ?
glazou: alternatively, we need a profile or a statement that interactive
rendering engines are not required to support the feature
fantasai: I don't think it belongs to CSS. it changes content.
glazou: if not then the content property is not a style property either
chrisl, howcome: this property does not alter the DOM
<dbaron> "This property is applied after the ‘white-space’ property."
needs to be defined much more carefully, since 'white-space'
applies at multiple stages of the processing model
ACTION: howcome to rewrite scope of character substitution; from batch
processors to not requiring support from interactive rendering engines
(discussion follows of text processing issues deemed beyond the grasp
of 'normal people'; minute-taker assumes he's one of them)
discussion about a more complete cascading transformation language that
would be more useful to printers and drop the feature from the WD
glazman: this is not a stylistic feature and therefore belongs outside
the specification
glazman: we can keep as is and scope it to make it optional for
interactive rendering engines; or we drop the section from GCPM
howcome: i'm not comfortable with dropping something that is both
pragmatic and useful to printers today
dbaron: as an inherited property, i'm not sure it'd make sense to use it
more than once per document
glazman: which brings us some other issues about the feature e.g. whether
it's inherited or not
fantasai: the main issue is that the feature as specified is is
incomplete/insufficient and will be hard to complete
within the context of CSS
glazou: third option for the property is to scope it to @media print
anne: does this mean browsers have to implement it for print ?
<anne> [apparently yes]
vote: dbaron #2, chrisl #2, arronei #2, elika #2, molly abstains,
hakon not 2, alex #2, anne abstains, bert #2, dglazman #2,
szilles #2, sylvaing #3
options were
#1 scope feature to exclude rendering engines
#2 drop feature
#3 like #1 + restrict to @media print
alexmog: my problem with this doesn't have anything to do with what
it does or why but the state of the feature wrt the rest of
the spec. I can't implement it as is and I'd rather implement
a spec completely
RESOLVED: character substitution is dropped out of the GCPM working draft
WG proceeds with quick review of GCPM sections to decide its publication
as a WD
<dbaron> Hmm, now that we have leaders and leading I wonder if we could
get some other variants of either of the base words so we can
confuse ourselves more. :-)
fantasai: two issues about footnotes. 1) steve's comment about multicolumn
footnotes and 2) what happens to footnotes in scrolling media
fantasai: specifically, where is the footnote box in the document in that case?
<glazou> (ongoing discussion about css3-gcpm)
renaming border-parts to border-clip
ACTION: howcome to compare and reconcile GCPM border-clip syntax with
border-image's
<dbaron> 00B9;SUPERSCRIPT ONE;No;0;EN;<super> 0031;;1;1;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT ONE;;;;
<dbaron> 00B2;SUPERSCRIPT TWO;No;0;EN;<super> 0032;;2;2;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT TWO;;;;
<dbaron> 00B3;SUPERSCRIPT THREE;No;0;EN;<super> 0033;;3;3;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT THREE;;;;
<dbaron> 2074;SUPERSCRIPT FOUR;No;0;EN;<super> 0034;;4;4;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT FOUR;;;;
<dbaron> 2075;SUPERSCRIPT FIVE;No;0;EN;<super> 0035;;5;5;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT FIVE;;;;
<dbaron> 2076;SUPERSCRIPT SIX;No;0;EN;<super> 0036;;6;6;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT SIX;;;;
<dbaron> 2077;SUPERSCRIPT SEVEN;No;0;EN;<super> 0037;;7;7;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT SEVEN;;;;
<dbaron> 2078;SUPERSCRIPT EIGHT;No;0;EN;<super> 0038;;8;8;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT EIGHT;;;;
<dbaron> 2079;SUPERSCRIPT NINE;No;0;EN;<super> 0039;;9;9;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT NINE;;;;
<dbaron> 2070;SUPERSCRIPT ZERO;No;0;EN;<super> 0030;;0;0;N;SUPERSCRIPT DIGIT ZERO;;;;
<dbaron> we should probably be adding this new type to
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/#numeric as well
<fantasai> yeah
<fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/#super-decimal
ACTION: howcome fantasai to move super-decimal counter type from GCPM to Lists
previous action is on howcome+fantasai
RESOLVED: super-decimal counter type moves from GCPM to Lists
<anne> fwiw "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission"
ACTION: chrisl to email plinss regarding the removal from CSS2.1 of
'without reliable resolution information' from intrinsic
dimensions definition in section 3.1
<anne> (i.e. just make the change)
(actually, we want Peter and HP's opinion)
<anne> (Are we skipping css3-flexbox and Fonts?)
<sylvaing> (text-replace: "css3-flexbox" "gcpm")
<anne> heh
RESOLVED: GCPM page-bleed renamed to bleed
RESOLVED: keep page floats in the GCPM WD
szilles: I am concerned about the clarity of the dependencies between
our outstanding drafts
szilles: while i'm happy to publish this as a working draft, I'm
concerned on our ability to resolve and fix the issues and
conflicts that may arise due to those dependencies
howcome: should we rename this module ?
chrisl: garbage collection placeholder module ?
(laughter)
<lunch />
Flexbox
-------
ScribeNick: fantasai
<dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/
dbaron: we resolved to publish this awhile ago
but it took me awhile to get it into the right format
dbaron: The editor token passed through a lot of revisions
dbaron: The most recent one had a lot of examples removed
dbaron: and also a lot of prose change
dbaron: So somebody ought to evaluate those changes
dbaron: but I also want to get published, because we've been discussing
this a lot
dbaron: There are other related proposals too, but I'd like to publish
what we have, just to get a draft out
Daniel: Any outstanding issues we should address before publishing?
dbaron: The major issue is interaction with other layout proposals
discussion of Ian's affiliation
Daniel: We preserve the affiliation at the time of the work being done
Alex: Can you give me a summary?
dbaron: A flexible box has children laid out either horizontally or vertically
dbaron: You have a property to choose which direction they go in
dbaron: What you do with the extra space ...
dbaron: In the dimension the children are laid out in, you can put
the space at the beginning, at the end, center the children,
or spread the space out
dbaron: Then in the direction that's not the direction you're laying
out, you can align the children to one side or the other
dbaron: You can also assign flex to some or all of the children
dbaron: flex controls where the space gets distributed
dbaron: That I think is the part that is implemented in both Mozilla
and Webkit
dbaron: There's an unimplemented box-ordinal part
dbaron: Which lets you say that flex goes to groups of elements in
priorities
dbaron: I'm not actually sure of the details, and the spec is all we
have to go on wrt what it was intended to be because nobody
implemented it
dbaron: A lot of the sizes by default, without flex, deal with
intrinsic sizes
dbaron: You can sometimes flex down instead of up
dbaron: Because usually you use the preferred width, but you can
flex things down to the minimum width
dbaron: There's also another piece that wasn't implemented, box-lines,
that allows boxes to lay out in multiple lines
dbaron: The draft might be short on mathematical details for things
like preferred and minimum widths...
dbaron: and some of that is its interaction with other parts of the
CSS box model
Alex: This is already implemented?
dbaron: yes
Alex: You don't know how it interacts with other models?
dbaron: To some extent, not very well.
dbaron: The important use cases... the one's where you really care
about interaction with other models
dbaron: The main one is putting a chunk of block-and-inline layout
inside a xul flexbox
dbaron: the other is building some widget-like thing that goes inside HTML
dbaron: In the first case, essentially what you're doing is most of
the time the chunk of block-and-inline layout takes up all
the available space
dbaron: so you're not using its intrinsic width
dbaron: The not-very-well understood case is when you're using the
intrinsic width for this
dbaron: but shrink-to-fit.... it doesn't work very well half the time
in the cases where we use it,too ????
dbaron: .... in floats, most of the time authors give a width
Alex: The challenge is to define the behavior of what David refers to
as not very well
Alex: The scenarios that we weouldn't really care about for the
purposes of this
dbaron: I think some of that is just getting a definition so everybody does
the same thing, nevermind trying to figure out something good to do
Alex: So this is flex layout, but also float:right or tables.. are there
issues with that?
dbaron: This is triggered by an additional value of the display property.
If you float it, it's a block, no longer a flexbox.
Alex: this is used to create layout. Is this a complete layout model that
is good for building user interfaces, or are there other pieces
that you'd want?
dbaron: This draft does not have the grids that we use in it
dbaron: The firefox UI is built using the primitives here plus a grid
that sort of works the same way, except it lays out its children
in both dimensions instead of one
anne says something about tables
dbaron: Our grids are weird, because they're neither row-primary or
column-primary
dbaron: I don't know if it's something we'd be happy standardizing
jdaggett: good weird or bad weird?
dbaron: some of both
dbaron: you can have a grid, give it a set of rows, then a set of columns
anne: They overlap?
dbaron: yes (?)
Chris: It might be useful to give some background on what XUL uses
Daniel: you can also say it's already implemented and this is a
standardization of the model use by XUL
anne: I still think it's confusing that Ian Hickson is listed as active
editor and from Opera Software
Daniel: We can write formerly of Opera Software, or list him as a
Previous Editor
people prefer Previous Editor
Alex: I don't think it conflicts with grid-positioning. Overlaps, probably yes
dbaron: I think there's a lot of overlap
dbaron: There's been some discussion on www-style about ways to do flex
in other things rather than just the box
dbaron: For example, making margins flexible
dbaron: Some people have been saying flex could be units.. there have
been a lot of ideas thrown in here
Daniel: From my experience building apps with XUL, what we have here
is adequate
fantasai: You'd have to use a lot of extra elements
dbaron: Yeah, in XUL you typically use spacer elements
jdaggett: Is there interest at Apple for doing more with this?
dbaron: I think so. I think they use this in things like iPhone apps
dbaron: and widget things that use WebKit
Anne: Opera has interest in adding a third implementation, if it's
better defined than now
Anne: We haven't started because we think adding a third implementation
of vagueness wouldn't be a good idea
RESOLVED: Change Ian's editor's status and publish flexbox as FPWD
Received on Wednesday, 17 June 2009 07:48:20 UTC