- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:12:14 -0800
- To: www-style@w3.org
- WG will start tracking attendance and use it to determine good/bad standing
in the WG starting this month.
- RESOLVED: Remove slash separating background color and fallback color in
'background-color' property. ISSUE-65
<http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/63>
RATIONALE: While this makes the property slightly harder to read and
requires typing out 'transparent' in full every time, it solves the
2-token lookahead problem very simply.
- TENTATIVE RESOLUTION: For background layers, the WG agreed that only
'background-image' should determine the number of background layers.
ISSUE-74 <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/74>
RATIONALE: Less likely to cause confusion for authors or introduce
unintended behavior through the cascade.
PENDING: Since Apple has already implemented the other option, we are
waiting to hear back from them. If they agree this issue will be
resolved as above.
- RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 91
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-91
Whitespace that is not rendered still affects where line breaking
opportunities occur.
- RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 95
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-95
to remove sections 13.2.1.1 and 13.2.1.2 (dealing with a page box
that doesn't match the page sheet, which can't happen in 2.1) from
the spec.
- RESOLVED: The "root em" unit will stay as 'rem'.
- RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 96 (Rule D mentions all
ancestors but forgets the element itself)
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-96
====== Full minutes below ======
Attendees:
David Baron
Bert Bos
Elika Etemad
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman (chair)
Håkon Wium Lie
Chris Lilley
Peter Linss
David Singer
Steve Zilles
<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-css-irc
<glazou> plinss: I started filling an attendance table for good standing
ScribeNick: fantasai
Attendance Records
------------------
Daniel: First thing, ... attendance to conference calls and F2Fs
Daniel: We said starting with the new charter we start looking at
attendance for good/bad standing in the WG
Daniel: So we start doing this today
CSS3 Backgrounds and Borders
----------------------------
<glazou> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/63
Daniel: First technical item is background shorthand
fantasai: I think the only proposal we had so far was to remove the
slash in background-color
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0142.html
dbaron: There are two uses of slash in the background shorthand.
dbaron: The first case is that a slash separates the bgcolor and
fallback color
dbaron: The other use is the slash indicates background-size
dbaron: When you're parsing and you get a slash, you don't know
whether you're going to get a background-size or background-color
dbaron: one option is to require background-size to come after a
particular property, such as background-position
fantasai: problem with that is that I expect people will use
background-size a lot without background-position
fantasai: The simplest thing would be to remove the slash in
background-color, but that would make it harder to read
and would require writing 'transparent' every time you
just want a fallback
Bert: Anne also suggested using parentheses for background-size
<dbaron> One other proposal is to replace the symbol '/' with the
keyword 'size' in the shorthand.
<dbaron> sylvaing: A functional notation for the value in the shorthand?
fantasai: we wanted to avoid using parens where grouping isn't required
Discussion of shorthand syntax conventions and why functional notation
is inconsistent with them
<Bert> Five proposals so far, I think:
(1) keep slash, but require size to follow position (and fallback
color to follow color);
(2) no slash between colors;
(3) parentheses around size;
(4) keyword 'size' before position;
(5) use size(w, h).
ChrisL: If the keyword is there in the shorthand, it should be present in
the property as well
<fantasai> background-size: size 40em 20em;
<fantasai> That looks weird. And redundant
<glazou> background-size: size(40em, 20em) is what he meant
<fantasai> ah
<ChrisL> yes, but it would keep the shorthand and the individual property
taking the same syntax
<glazou> ChrisL: yes but ugly
Bert: I think I'm favoring having no slash in the color
<fantasai> background-color: transparent white;
<fantasai> background: ..... transparent white;
<fantasai> vs
<fantasai> background-color: / white;
<fantasai> background: .... / white;
<fantasai> background: url(pattern.png) / white;
<fantasai> background: url(pattern.png) transparent / white;
Daniel asks if 2-token lookahead is really a problem for everyone
<ChrisL> no objection
dbaron explains that he'd rather reuse code for parsing the property
rather than having to rewrite that code in the shorthand parsing function
Daniel proposes going with 2) remove slash
<dbaron> (2) is fine with me
RESOLVED: remove slash
<glazou> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/74
<dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
Options are, either every comma-separated property determines the number
of layers (highest wins); or only background-image defines the number
of layers
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0087.html
Daniel: Apple has implemented the multiple-property approache
fantasai: I think the single-property approach would be less confusing
and less likely to introduce unintended effects through the
cascade.
<glazou> Daniel,David, Bert favor the bg-image approach
fantasai: I asked Molly and Jason and they also think that would be
less confusing for authors
<dbaron> I'm trying to figure out if we discussed this in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004OctDec/0123.html
<dbaron> ... or http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004OctDec/0129.html
sylvain: I like fantasai's solution, but I haven't thought about it
enough to have a strong opinion
NOTED: Working Group favors background-image solution, waiting for
Apple's response since they have implemented the other solution
already.
fantasai: In terms of backwards compatibility, I think very few people
would be taking advantage of the fact that properties other
than background-image increase the number of layers in Safari
Daniel: That issue deferred to next week, or sooner if Apple replies on
the mailing list
CSS2.1
------
<glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-91
<dbaron> I wonder whether Hixie has an opinion on this issue (issue 91)...
<fantasai> <span style="white-space: nowrap">text </span> text2
<fantasai> is there a break opportunity between text and text2?
<fantasai> that's the question
<dbaron> I don't think the testcase thtree lines up is all that contrived
<fantasai> In CSS3 there will most likely be a value that removes all
whitespace, so whatever answer we want should match the
behavior there
<fantasai> (in the example above the second space gets dropped)
<fantasai> Rendered text there is "text text2"
<Bert> (I think the collapsing affects how far apart the two words are,
but there are conceptually still two word separators and one of
them allows lines to break...)
<ChrisL> so its not *removal* of ws, but not rendering it (or rendering
as a zero-width space?)
Daniel: Sounds consistent with fantasai's proposal.
<sylvaing> no objection
Daniel: Should we accept? Any objections?
RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0075.html accepted
<glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-92
Daniel: We should skip this until Melinda is here.
<glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-95
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/page.html#oversized-page-box
<fantasai> These two sections (13.2.1.1 and 13.2.1.2) can't exist in 2.1
because we removed the size property so we should just remove
those sections
RESOLVED: remove
Flow Roots
----------
<glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-box/#flow-root
Daniel: Howcome has a question about flow roots
fantasai: flow roots are just a new name for block formatting context roots
Bert: I thought that "element that introduces a block formatting context"
was a bit long
<ChrisL> :)
howcome: The problem I'm trying to solve is that in multicolumn layout,
a float is relative to the column box
howcome: But I don't think each column box should be a containing block,
e.g. for positioned content
dbaron: The column box is a containing block. The width of elements
inside the column, for example, are calculated wrt the column box
fantasai: the abspos containing block can be the multicolumn box, and is
in your spec
dbaron: The column box shouldn't be considered to be relatively positioned.
howcome: So it doesn't create a reference for abspos.
dbaron: yeah
howcome: Ok, that helps.
CSS3 Values and Unites: rem unit
--------------------------------
howcome: Should it be rem, or rm, or something else?
fantasai: rem sounds good to me
<Bert> deg = 3 letters...
howcome: the other units are two letters
howcome: if people like rem, I'll keep that
RESOLVED: rem
dbaron: I have another issue with rem
dbaron: Interaction with SVG resource documents
dbaron: I think it needs to the root of the root document
dbaron: we might want to postpone this
CSS2.1
------
Daniel: Anything else?
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-96
<fantasai> if people feel that needs discussion, then discuss
<fantasai> I thought it was pretty obviously an error
RESOLVED: it's an error, fix it
dbaron: Might want to say "of the block box"
dbaron: just to be more specific
Meeting closed.
Received on Wednesday, 7 January 2009 21:12:55 UTC