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Minutes, 8 April CSS WG telcon

From: Chris Lilley <chris@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 19:03:02 +0200
Message-ID: <16974901.20090408190302@w3.org>
To: www-style@w3.org
Hello www-style,

 Minutes of the 8 April CSS WG meeting are at

and below as text.

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: bert make the changes in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: daniel to respond to yves saying why ident is not an issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-minutes.html#action01]

Summary of resolutions
resolved: publish and update to css 2.1 asap
resolved: accept berts proposal on gramar
resolved: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html is a non-issue
RESOLVED: duplicate malformed declarations rule for malformed statements (statements rule to come after declarations rule in the spec)

                             css wg telcon

08 Apr 2009


      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0020.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-irc


          dsinger, glazou, David_Baron, sylvaing, plinss, ChrisL,
          Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome, SteveZ




     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]agenda - member or public
         2. [6]CSS2.1 Issue followup
         3. [7]Issues with CSS2.1 Grammar
         4. [8]Fallback color on background-image
         5. [9]Fallback on border-image
         6. [10]next f2f in sophia
     * [11]Summary of Action Items

   <glazou> hi MikeSmith

   <MikeSmith> glazou: konban wa

   <fantasai> dsinger_: type /nick dsinger

   <fantasai> dsinger_: type /nick dsinger into your IRC client

   <fantasai> dsinger_: then Zakim will recognize you

   <dsinger_> Can we discuss the sophia agenda briefly?

   <dsinger_> T u

   <glazou> np

   <glazou> I only forgot to add it on the agenda but that was on the

   <glazou> ok emilyw

   <dsinger_> Chris asks why agenda is member only but minutes are

   <dsinger_> Admin is member only, tech is public

   <scribe> scribenick: chrisl

   <scribe> scribe: chris

agenda - member or public

   dg: chris suggests sending agenda to the public list

   bb: why? no advantage

   dd: agenda almost always public. any member -specific stuff is rare
   and can be discussed separately

   <dsinger_> I think the current arr. Is odd but right

   pl: can post the agenda minus the dial in numbers to the public list

   db: publ;ic may have useful feedback

   <fantasai> dg: no, not dial in numbers, just topics

   mg: if agenda is early enough

   bb: don't want to do this, writing for the public takes to much
   time. unecessary

   sg: specific example?

   bb: want to hide spelling mistakes

   <fantasai> pl: how about we send the agenda to the members mailing
   list and send a synopsis to the public mailing list

   <dsinger_> Has any public asked?

   pl: how about a synopsis of agenda sent to public, plus fuller
   agenda to member list

   cl: dave - no

   <dsinger_> They see the minutes

   db: how would they ask for it without knowing it exists

   dg: minor issue, no consensus to move to public agenda.

   <dsinger_> It is work to fix, and dpes not seem worth it

   dg: could take more time to sort through public feedback before

   cl: ok, thanks for considering it

   <fantasai> dg: we stay as we are for the time being


     [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0212.html

CSS2.1 Issue followup


     [13] http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24

   Everyone had an action to read Bert's email and prepare for

   ee: made comments in email

   <dbaron> the " apple][ {color: red}" is actually a lot more
   complicated than Bert said

   <fantasai> no, actually, last week's minutes

   <fantasai> fantasai: shouldn't this have been sent to the public
   mailing list?

   ee: wasn't berts comment supposed to be sent to public list?

   db: contents of email seem reasonable but i don't see a proposal
   ... two examples look a bit complex

   <dbaron> complex in that they're more complicated than stated
   because of ()/[]/{}-matching

   bb: my preference is to not do anything
   ... this is as far as I got

   ee: it doesn't adress selectors. want it to cover at-rules and
   declaration blocks

   <glazou> szilles: ?

   ee: idea that you match brackets and quotes is clear enough without
   specific microparsong rules
   ... there is an error in the spec as we changed the wording and
   introduced a new issue
   ... proposal was that the part on malformed declarations was changed
   to stateents


     [14] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#parsing-errors

   <fantasai> There's a rule about malformed declarations

   ee: should be "statements and declarations"

   <fantasai> yea

   bb: not sure you always know if you are in a statement or not

   ee: in one if you are not in a declaration
   ... @rule is always a statement
   ... if you are in a decl skip to end of decl, else skip to end of
   that statement

   bb: no statements inside an @media

   <fantasai> bb: they look like statements, but they aren't according
   to the grammar

   bb: hence the complex email, there are different types of @rules.
   @media and @page are different
   ... take last example in my email
   ... you are at the top level then you see an invalid string. have
   not started the first statement
   ... have to assume you are unless you are clearly not eg a comment
   ... would like it to be as simple as elika says but doubt it is that

   ee: only unclear case is inside @page in css3
   ... so suggest dupllicating the malfored rule for stateents, then
   add more detail in css3 paged media

   dg: good compromise. is it acceptable?

   bb: imples an error inside an @rule causes whole @rule to be

   ee: depends on where it occurs

   <dbaron> I think in the long run we should have a single grammar
   that has "unexpected content" productions that match pretty much
   anything and which correspond to the pieces that get ignored

   ee: not if the @rulke has declarations.
   ... trap points are stzatements and declarations

   <glazou> dbaron: yes

   sg: what are the chars that are matched?

   { ( "

   <fantasai> ee: brackets and quotes

   <glazou> ChrisL: that's sylvain galineau

   <sylvaing> yeah so content:"}" does not cause havoc

   <dbaron> also [

   <fantasai> and '

   <fantasai> :)

   <sylvaing> ()/{}/[]/""/''

   dg: any objections to elika's proposal

   (none heard)

   bb: ok lets try it

   <fantasai> RESOLVED: duplicate malformed declarations rule for
   malformed statements (statements rule to come after declarations
   rule in the spec)

   resolution: duplicate section on malformed declarations for
   malformed stateents

   db: I think in the long run we should have a single grammar that has
   "unexpected content" productions that match pretty much anything and
   which correspond to the pieces that get ignored
   ... make the production that covers all things that get ignored
   ... this is a rather big project

   dg: I agree in principle, on desirability and timeline


     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0299.html

Issues with CSS2.1 Grammar


     [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html

   dg: should a class be a name instead of an ident?

   db: why?

   ee: think he missed the point odf the section

   dg: and why to escape the first digit

   ee: comparing css1 and css2, think he is confused. can no longer do

   dg: agree, not an issue

   resolved: non-issue

   <dbaron> somebody should respond :-)


     [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html

   <scribe> ACTION: daniel to respond to yves saying why ident is not
   an issue [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-138 - Respond to yves saying why ident is
   not an issue [on Daniel Glazman - due 2009-04-15].


     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html

   bb: yes, the S token is ambiguous
   ... ok to change the grammar

   dg: so remove s* from end of import?

   bb: yes

   bert's response

     [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html


     [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html

   pl: agree

   bb: yves says its easier if no non terminals can produce an empty
   ... can accept that

   dg: any objection?

   (non heard)

   dg: choices in berts email seem harmless
   ... and obvious

   resolved: accept berts proposal on gramar

   <scribe> ACTION: bert make the changes in
   [recorded in

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - Make the changes in
   [on Bert Bos - due 2009-04-15].

     [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html

   sg: do we have any outstanding 2.1 issues before publication?

   dg: no, so lets publish and update as soon as possible

   ee: bert and I will check all the edits have been made

   db: so i put an issue on the end of the list
   ... font-weight bolder and lighter, want to backport from css3 to
   css 2.1

   <dbaron> issue 111

   cl: is it simple to specify?

   db: yes but no proposed text yet

   bb: prefer to see actual text

   (several) yes

   db: fine to publish but there is more stuff to do

   ee: boris has some pendingf issues on anonymous tales still to come

   resolved: publish and update to css 2.1 asap

   <fantasai> Bert, we should schedule a day to coordinate on 2.1

Fallback color on background-image


     [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0536.html

   ee: at f2f we decided I would propose text so we don't need to
   discuss this now


     [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0389.html

Fallback on border-image


     [27] http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html

   dg: wh can summarise this?

   ee: several open issues from discussions with dave hyatt, brad
   kempers proposal adresses all of them
   ... look at his pictures
   ... if image fails to load, layout jumps around. also layout changes
   depending on border-image support
   ... so want it to not affect border-width
   ... example with a jutting corner
   ... make sa lot of sense
   ... also says designers want an image where layout aligns with a
   given point of the image, wants to allow some overflow
   ... minor issues to discuss on mailing list, precise syntax, but we
   should adopt this

   hyatt and roc in favour

   dg: demoed boder image, people were scared by the nuber of arguments
   and this adds four more. its hard to remember

   ee: maybe a shorthand with individual properties like
   ... more understandable at expense of adding more properties

   dg: public wants it to be simpler and easier to understand. need to
   look at very carefully
   ... seems to meet web designer's wishes

   bb: what if the corerr image is wider than the box itself?

   ee: probably it gets clipped

   db: there is some rule to explain how to handle this

   ee: needs to be worked out in detsail

   dg: any objection to moving forward on this proposal

   hl: not studied in detail yet

   dg: so, do we adopt this direction and develop it further?
   ... main issue is relayout which is a big issue

   ee: hyatt raised this also

   dg: does make sense
   ... any disagreement?

   (none heard)

   dg: several options, functional notation or shorthand

   <fantasai> sg: I like the proposal, but usability of the syntax is a

   resolved: adopt this direction to avoid relayout but make the syntax
   easier to understand

next f2f in sophia

   <fantasai> [28]http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2009

     [28] http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2009

   dg: need agenda items to help people with travel planning

   ee: pleae add topics to the wiki

   ds: no specific ones to suggest but might be difficult getting apple
   dev there as right before out dev conference

   <Bert> Currently known topics: test suites, and grid/matric/template

   sz: last day of japan f2f should have a list of topics

   ee: will add them

   ds: three day meeting all day?

   dg: yes
   ... any other items?

   hl: think ing on column break vs page break. any strong opinions?

   ee: melinda and i discussing, no opinions yet

   hl: want to bring back the column-break-{before, after, inside}
   rather than having this in the page properties

   sz: then you have an interaction problem

   hl: yes, needs to be defined

   <melinda> I'm kinda leaning the same way... maybe with a shorthand
   to combine them...???

   hl: yes, shorthand could be good. will propose text


   <Bert> Fantasai, for the CSS 2.1 issues, any day is fine starting
   next Tuesday.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: bert make the changes in
   [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: daniel to respond to yves saying why ident is not an
   issue [recorded in

     [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html

   [End of minutes]

 Chris Lilley                    mailto:chris@w3.org
 Technical Director, Interaction Domain
 W3C Graphics Activity Lead
 Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG
Received on Wednesday, 8 April 2009 17:03:16 UTC

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