Minutes: MathML Full meeting, 16 Oct, 2025

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - David Carlisle
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Murray Sargent

<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-action-items>Action Items
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-3-progress-on-spec-writing->3. Progress on
spec-writing? <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-intent-grammar-change>intent
grammar change

*ACTION:* DC: Invited everyone to review pull 543
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/pull/543>.

                DC: The pull request is basically what I proposed in Intent
Properties: ordering & references Issue #449
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449>. It is meant to have something
concrete to discuss -- others are invited to submit their own PR prior to
next week's meeting.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-agenda>Agenda
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-mos-how-to-render-spaces-between-operators-such-as-a-operator-name-sn-b-with-spaces-before-and-after-sn-a-href-https-issues-chromium-org-issues-443107123-https-issues-chromium-org-issues-443107123-a->MoS:
How to render spaces between operators such as $a\operator name{sn}b$ with
spaces before and after sn https://issues.chromium.org/issues/443107123?

MoS This does not work in Chrome

DC: lspace on mo works in chrome and Firefox. rspace may also work.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-mfenced-clarification>mfenced clarification
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-181-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-lt-maligngroup-gt-and-lt-malignmark-gt-a->2.
#181 MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of
<maligngroup/> and <malignmark/> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-update-from-david-about-css-properties>Update
from David about css properties

DC: Browsers have custom properties such as -moz-right but there is a new
standard css property (justify-items) that is already implemented in chrome
that should allow these vendor-prefixed properties to be dropped eventually.

PL: Don't we want to back this as a polyfill?

DC: Yes.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-3-progress-on-spec-writing->3. Progress on
spec-writing? <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-intent-grammar-change>intent
grammar change

*ACTION:* PL: Invited everyone to review pull 543
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/pull/543>.

DC: The pull request is basically what I proposed in Intent Properties:
ordering & references Issue #449 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449>. It
is meant to have something concrete to discuss -- others are invited to
submit their own PR prior to next week's meeting.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-4-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-449-intent-properties-ordering-amp-references-issue-449-a->4.
Intent Properties: ordering & references Issue #449
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449>
Waiting for Bruce and/or Deyan to discuss
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-5-a-href-https-w3c-github-io-mathml-docs-unicode-speech-review-of-unicode-character-names-a->5.
Review of Unicode character names
<https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/unicode-speech/>

with emphasis on literal vs semantic names

Note: MathCAT currently only has literal names for

   - ! (bang or exclamation mark depending on verbosity)
   - | vertical line
   - · dot (instead of "times")
   - ∥ double vertical line (but none for ∦)

There are also rules that force speaking parens that might otherwise be
elided and not saying "times" for invisible times.

NS: It does not make sense to have another column for literal entries in
DC's table.

Ns: Literals are suggestions to screen readers what to use instead of
Unicode names.

NS: We are not going to give a concept name to every Unicode character.

NS: There are several circle symbols that people use for degree symbols.

NS: Would like to get a list of literal character names for Unicode
characters for MathCAT.

PL: Where would this discussion be anchored in our specification? PL
expressed a willingness to write an introduction paragraph to this
discussion. This discussion would make recommendations for literal names.

NS: You would say that there'd be entries for MI, MO, MN, and then text.
There should be a link to the list of character names from the list of
literals and common core properties
<https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/literal-common-properties#common-property>.

<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-zoom-meeting-report>Zoom Meeting Report
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-summary>Summary

The team discussed technical issues with NVDA screen readers and reviewed
progress on various ongoing projects, including CSS alignment improvements
and pull requests for grammar changes. They explored rendering challenges
in Chrome and Firefox, particularly regarding mathematical operators and
spaces, and agreed on a solution involving MO and L/R-space characters. The
group also discussed naming conventions for mathematical symbols, focusing
on literal versus conceptual names, and concluded with plans to improve
documentation and character representation across different encoding
systems.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-inheritance-and-property-passing>Inheritance
And Property Passing

David shared his screen and discussed a pull request he made on issue 449
regarding inheritance and property passing, which he hopes will lead to a
conclusion.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-css-and-browser-compatibility-updates>CSS and
Browser Compatibility Updates

The team discussed several ongoing projects and issues. David reported
progress on CSS alignment for mTables, introducing a new justify-items
property that works in Chrome and Chrome-based browsers. The team agreed to
review a pull request for grammar changes related to intent properties,
with Neil noting that the discussion would be postponed for a week to allow
for this review. Moritz raised a concern about rendering spaces in Chrome,
which the team agreed to investigate further. The conversation ended with a
brief discussion of a Unico Character Names table compiled by David.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-chrome-math-operator-display-fix>Chrome Math
Operator Display Fix

The team discussed a rendering issue in Chrome where spaces between
mathematical operators were not displaying correctly. After testing various
solutions, they determined that using an MO (mathematical operator) with
L-space and R-space characters worked consistently in both Chrome and
Firefox. Moritz agreed to implement this solution to fix the bug and close
the issue.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-mathematical-symbol-naming-conventions>Mathematical
Symbol Naming Conventions

The team discussed the naming conventions for mathematical symbols,
focusing on literal versus conceptual names. Neil shared that he identified
only 4 characters with literal names in Mathcat, suggesting the list could
grow to 10-12 characters. The group debated whether to maintain a separate
column for literal names in their table, with David and Murray agreeing
that most characters should be described as "literal" and using more
descriptive terms like "superscript letter" instead of "modifier letter."
They concluded that the table should serve as a guide for reading
characters either without a concept or when choosing to read them character
by character, with the possibility of collaboration to expand the list with
additional languages.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-mathematical-symbol-naming-debate>Mathematical
Symbol Naming Debate

Neil, David, Murray, and Louis discussed the naming and usage of
mathematical symbols, particularly focusing on the distinction between
literal and semantic interpretations. They debated the necessity of unique
names for symbols like the fraction slash (2044) to avoid confusion,
especially for blind users who rely on speech cues for understanding text.
Murray emphasized the importance of clear differentiation to ensure
accurate interpretation, while Neil and Louis questioned the practical
significance of such distinctions in everyday usage. The group concluded
that while unique names could be helpful, the literal meaning of symbols
often suffices for most users.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-math-symbol-naming-challenges>Math Symbol
Naming Challenges

The team discussed the challenges of distinguishing between similar
mathematical symbols, such as the slash and divided by symbols, in
text-to-speech contexts. They agreed that unique names for these symbols
are necessary to prevent confusion, especially for visually impaired users.
Murray suggested using Unicode designations, while Neil emphasized the need
for a simplified naming system. The group also touched on the difficulty of
distinguishing between similar characters like circles and boxes, with Paul
suggesting the use of unique visual indicators.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-symbol-encoding-standards-discussion>Symbol
Encoding Standards Discussion

The group discussed the challenges of symbol representation across
different encoding systems, particularly LaTeX and Unicode. They explored
how LaTeX and Unicode handle degree symbols differently, with LaTeX using
"backslash circ" and Unicode using "00B0." The discussion highlighted the
need for normalization in tools like MAFCAT to standardize these
variations, while acknowledging that some symbols like the equal sign
should not be renamed to describe their meaning. David and Neil agreed that
while Unicode provides a comprehensive set of mathematical symbols, some
symbols like the micro and Angstrom symbols are intentionally designed to
avoid confusion with their textual counterparts.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-character-documentation-rules-discussion>Character
Documentation Rules Discussion

The team discussed how to handle character representation and speaking
rules in their documentation. Paul agreed to write an introduction
paragraph for a specification section, while David explained that the
common rules would override literal rules when inferring intents. They
decided to link to a separate document containing a large table of
characters, which would be referenced for MO, MI, and Mtext entries. The
team agreed to review Paul's upcoming PR for the properties