Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: MathML-Core meeting, Monday Nov 29, 2021

Agreed.

In our discussion, if we frame it as mapping Unicode into MathML
mathvariants, rather than the other way around, then everything is well
defined and portable.        The question about mathvariant bold italic
zero does not require there to be a Unicode point.  A browser can render as
it sees fit.    And, thinking about it, perhaps a speech-only renderer
doesn't need to know or care about Unicode.

The part about other math variants is an afterthought.   If we later add
other mathvariants  (or allow user-defined variants and rendering rules in
MathML ++N) then everything can still be interoperable (exchanging MathML),
but rendering might look different.   But it can look different anyway as
font choice will depend on the user's environment.

Stephen

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 3:18 PM Murray Sargent <
murrays@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote:

> The problem with espousing general character formation rules is that they
> may (and probably will) not be interoperable. We want MathML to be
> interoperable. Unicode is designed to be interoperable and succeeds
> surprisingly well.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Murray
>
>
>
> *From:* Stephen Watt <smwatt@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 29, 2021 11:50 AM
> *To:* Brian Kardell <bkardell@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* www-math@w3.org
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: MathML-Core meeting, Monday Nov 29, 2021
>
>
>
> Following the MathML-Core meeting, I was thinking some more about the math
> variant issue.   Neil made an excellent point that it is the MathML markup
> that determines the meaning.
>
>
>
> I agree and would take it further, suggesting that we have been looking at
> the question backwards.   Rather than ask "Is it permissible to have a
> variant of a character with no corresponding Unicode point, e.g.
> math-variant bold italic of a digit?" we should instead say that a raw
> Unicode math-variant character is equivalent to  a MathML math variant.
>  Then the question is only how to render MathML math variants.
>
>
>
> So logically, we could say we map Unicode into MathML, not MathML into
> unicode -- that is the main point.
>
>
>
> This allows MathML to make up any other variants it wishes, with its own
> rendering rules.   As a silly example, we could have the "upside-down" math
> variant for which it could be argued we have a few particular points in
> unicode (e.g. for all ∀, there exists ∃, co-product ∐, mho ℧, and even an
> inverted factorial ¡).
>
>
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 4:56 PM Brian Kardell <bkardell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It was brought to my attention that I share the wrong cryptpad URL (you
> have to use the share button to get the sharable URL).  The correct URL
> should be https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/2/code/edit/4ZrscOeHMxtuAerfmNAN8gME/
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcryptpad.fr%2Fcode%2F%23%2F2%2Fcode%2Fedit%2F4ZrscOeHMxtuAerfmNAN8gME%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmurrays%40exchange.microsoft.com%7Ccc265451e8f142c1178208d9b371a5ab%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637738122982141378%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=fMfybBlh9mRVPza5OnNDIyj3462XoKFwjo1Y%2Fh1e%2BhU%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:20 AM Brian Kardell <bkardell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There will be a MathML-Core meeting on Monday.  We missed meeting in
> October because of TPAC, and it's doubtful we'll have much attendance at a
> December meeting as it falls between Christmas and New Year when many
> people (myself included) are out.  We'll discuss whether to have a December
> meeting or rejoin in Jan, but let's get through as much as we can so that
> people can make progress between now and then.
>
> I've put together the beginning of an agenda, please feel free to add your
> edits..
>
> https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/3/code/edit/16483a48eec88f7df3b16dd8002a874e/
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcryptpad.fr%2Fcode%2F%23%2F3%2Fcode%2Fedit%2F16483a48eec88f7df3b16dd8002a874e%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmurrays%40exchange.microsoft.com%7Ccc265451e8f142c1178208d9b371a5ab%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637738122982141378%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CnCqhT%2Fuk9JFo0zDSHWAi4m5fW8ZNihv4PLS5wSuZTo%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbkardell.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmurrays%40exchange.microsoft.com%7Ccc265451e8f142c1178208d9b371a5ab%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637738122982141378%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iUk%2BRTjJupRsnKHXIXbWh%2F3RcaPVQL341kw18K6N9Qc%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbkardell.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmurrays%40exchange.microsoft.com%7Ccc265451e8f142c1178208d9b371a5ab%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637738122982141378%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=iUk%2BRTjJupRsnKHXIXbWh%2F3RcaPVQL341kw18K6N9Qc%3D&reserved=0>
>
>