[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2021-04-08


  – DRAFT –
            Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

08 April 2021

    [2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.

       [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Apr/0000.html
       [3] https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-i18n-irc


           addison, Atsushi, Bert, Fuqiao, JcK, Richard


           Addison Phillips

           addison, Bert


     1. [4]Agenda Review
     2. [5]Action Items
     3. [6]Info Share
     4. [7]RADAR Review
     5. [8]CSS: Use of logical properties in examples
     6. [9]geolocation 50 comment
     7. [10]String-meta "unnatural language text"
     8. [11]epub
     9. [12]Summary of action items

Meeting minutes

    trackbot, prepare teleconference

   Agenda Review

   Action Items

    r12a: I suggest we appoint a scribe.

    <addison> [13]https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/

      [13] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

    <addison> action-996?

    <trackbot> [14]action-996: Addison Phillips to Follow up with
    mark davis on liaison status and google participation -- due
    2021-02-25 -- OPEN

      [14] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/996

    addison: I pinged Mark again. He is hopefully going to take up
    our case-folding issue soon.
    … He wants to continue being our liaison.
    … He made some suggestions for dealing with Google and this
    … So keep the action open.

    <addison> action-1006?

    <trackbot> [15]action-1006: Richard Ishida to Reply to coga
    issue with a proposed note addition to the text -- due
    2021-03-18 -- OPEN

      [15] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1006

    <addison> close action-1006

    <trackbot> Closed action-1006.

    r12a: That is done.

    <addison> reopen action-1006

    <trackbot> Re-opened action-1006.

    <xfq> [16]https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/162

      [16] https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/162

    <xfq> [17]https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/246

      [17] https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/246

    Discussion about who the action was for. Was it for Felix? So
    is it not done?

    xfq: Those two ^^ are related.

    <xfq> [18]https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/248

      [18] https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/248

    r12a: I replied to a similar one, I think, similar to 162
    … I can add a comment to 162.

    <xfq> [19]https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/231

      [19] https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/231

    xfq: r12a also replied to 231 ^^

    r12a: They all seem to be saying the same thing.

    xfq: Yes, different issues but about same things.

    r12a: Was I supposed to write the text? It wasn't clear from
    the minutes.
    … I asked them to write the text, rather than write the text
    for them.

    addison: You could extra credit by writing the text. :-)

    <addison> close action-1006

    <trackbot> Closed action-1006.

    <addison> action-1011?

    <trackbot> [20]action-1011: Addison Phillips to Send a note to
    google acrep asking for potential i18n support -- due
    2021-04-01 -- OPEN

      [20] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1011

    r12a: Let's close the action-1006. I'll keep the web page open
    and will add a comment. (But wondering if it should be Felix.)

    <addison> close action-1011

    <trackbot> Closed action-1011.

    <addison> action-1013?

    <trackbot> [21]action-1013: Addison Phillips to Comment on
    geolocation 50 about on going discussion of i18n on this topic
    -- due 2021-04-08 -- OPEN

      [21] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1013

    <addison> close action-1013

    <trackbot> Closed action-1013.

    addison: About error msg localisation, it's on the agenda.
    Marcos replied, but I haven't read it in depth.

    r12a: Marcos is really trying to help. We can let him off the

    addison: I don't expect they will change the spec.

    r12a: They say they won't make substantive changes, aren't

    addison: Sometimes we have to ask for changes, though.

    r12a: At this stage they are just making editorial changes.

   Info Share

    addison: Anybody any info to share?

    Nobody has.

   RADAR Review

    <addison> [22]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

      [22] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

    addison: Cascading & Inheritance 4 & 5, anything left to do?

    atsushi: Yes.

    addison: That's our agenda item 5.
    … Move it to completed?

    atsushi: Yes, should be OK to move.

   CSS: Use of logical properties in examples

    <addison> [23]https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5570

      [23] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5570

    atsushi: (I'm looking through my email for the issues.)
    … Fantasai wrote that level 3 won't change.
    … But we may be able to delay it to level 4.

    addison: It seems our request is reasonable. We would need to
    make a new issue agains level 4 or 5.

    r12a: Looking... Maybe possible to use the same issue and just
    change the label.

    addison: r12a, do you change the labels?

    r12a: Yes, I can do that.

    Action: richard reopen csswg 5570 against cascade-4/5

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1014 - Reopen csswg 5570 against
    cascade-4/5 [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-04-15].

   geolocation 50 comment

    <addison> [24]https://github.com/w3c/geolocation-api/issues/50

      [24] https://github.com/w3c/geolocation-api/issues/50

    addison: There is not a lot here, but I call attention to my
    long note and Marcos's reply.

    <xfq> [25]https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#localization

      [25] https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#localization

    addison: Should we write something into specdev for this?

    xfq: We already have a section about error messages, see ^^
    … Maybe the section title can be made clearer.

    r12a: Sound like a good idea.

    xfq: The last few guidances in that section are relevant.

    addison: Should we extract anything as explanation?

    r12a: Yes, discuss it in specdev.

    Action: addison: harvest useful text from geolocation 50 for

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1015 - Harvest useful text from
    geolocation 50 for specdev [on Addison Phillips - due

    addison: We were about to discuss it in the contet of

   String-meta "unnatural language text"

    r12a: We can write it in one and link from the other.

    <addison> [26]https://w3c.github.io/

      [26] https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/#syntactic-content

    addison: I did some more editing on syntactic content.
    … Based on our conversation last time.
    … It has forward reference to the base example.

    Bert: Text is clear, heading was a bit hard too parse, to many
    nouns in a row.

    addison: r12a suggested mentionoing the words data and values.

    r12a: I'm not sure, in the 4th para, if all of those strings
    are syntactic.
    … We might be shooting ourselves in the foot a bit.

    addison: You might indeed want to bidi-isolate them, but they
    are still identifiers.

    r12a: Isolation might not be enough.

    addison: And set direction to ltr, because there may be a
    strong directional letter.

    <addison> HEBREW HERE YOUR BOOK IS <span
    dir=auto>978-1234666666</span> <!-- all rtl -->

    r12a: E.g., a publication date might be in Japanese and need an
    appropriate font.

    addison: The date is in ISO format.
    … People use JSON-LD and other strings for data. They don't
    need lang or dir there.

    <addison> Content-Type: text/html

    r12a: Yes, because those things are part of the syntax, but is
    a date also part of the syntax?

    <addison> pubDate: "2021-07-15T14:00:00Z"

    addison: Look at the example. It is a value in some data

    r12a: Yes, but you don't say that in the text. It might be that
    the ISO date is just one example of a date and people could
    have use a different representation, rather than a syntactic
    requirement to use an ISO date.
    … I suggest we clarify that.
    … And ISBN?

    addison: It is a identifier, and of couese you do need some
    care in presenting it. Take a MAC address, e.g.

    r12a: So how do you prevent pieces from being swapped?

    addison: Probably need to set dir=ltr, "auto" might not work,
    when there are no strongs.

    addison: IP addresses and phone numbers are other examples.
    … You need dir when displaying them.

    r12a: I'm not clear whether we have looked into all the ins and

    addison: I think it is important we collectively have an idea
    what to recommenda and how to recomments.
    … If I haven't expressed it well enough yet, that is not good.
    … Are there other things we should say in this text?

    r12a: I don't know.

    addison: Obviously I need to clarify that para.
    … Want to think about it for a week?

    r12a: Yes.


    <xfq> [27]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1353

      [27] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1353

    xfq: I have 3 pending issues
    … Encoding of CSS files (1353).
    … Why is UTF-16 mentioned (in addition to UTF-8) there?

    addison: Is that the sole mention of utf-16 in CSS for epub?

    xfq: Yes, this is the only sentence.

    <xfq> > It MUST be encoded in UTF-8 or UTF-16 [Unicode].

    r12a: Maybe they can refer to the encoding standard instead of
    Unicode. And take out utf-16.

    addison: The question is why they mention utf-16. Are there
    books encoded in it?
    … I second r12a's suggestion of referring to Encoding standard.

    r12a: We can ask the question and see what they say. And
    depending on the answer we can suggest referring to Encoding.

    addison: Do that in a second issue?

    atsushi: There is a legacy encoding section.

    r12a: The Encoding spec says explicitly to not use anything
    else than utf-8.

    <xfq> [28]https://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/

      [28] https://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/

    addison: It defines the other encodings as well, but indeed
    says to not use them.

    addison: So objections to forwarding this issue to them?

    xfq: With label needs-resolution?

    <atsushi> +1

    addison: Absolutely.

    <Bert> +1

    <xfq> [29]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1354

      [29] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1354

    xfq: 2nd issue is 1354, limit of file name to 255 bytes.
    … They also say file names must be unique after case
    normalization, but not clear what normalization they mean.

    addison: That seems to call for a separate issue.

    <addison> [30]https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/

      [30] https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/core/#sec-container-filenames

    addison: They have *two* restrictions on the file name. And
    they say the file name is utf-8, but they don't say anything
    about path name.

    JcK: [missed]

    addison: They also exclude the emoji flags. They try to make it
    file system safe.

    JcK: I understand that, but nthey're not getting it right.

    r12a: Typo U+FDDO instead of U+FDD0 (Oh instead of zero)
    … The U+FDD0 … U+FDEF is indeed unassigned, but why not other
    unassigned characters in other blocks?

    addison: And unassigned now may become assigned later.

    addison: So it is a whole raft of issues...

    <xfq> atsushi: U+1FFFFF might be a typo

    <r12a> also U+1FFFFF is out of range

    <xfq> [31]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1355

      [31] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1355

    xfq: In the reading system interface there is an object for the
    name of the reading system. I want to ask if the name is meant
    for human reading.

    addison: Indeed not clear if it is an identifer or text.
    … You should split the file name issue into several issues and
    raise them all.
    … case-normalization should refer to charmod.

    r12a: The two typos can be together in one issue.

    xfq: And the language meta data issue?

    addison: Yes, we should engage in that discussion.

    <r12a> [32]https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/

      [32] https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3699#issuecomment-815867601

    r12a: Different topic: Shadow DOM and inheritance of
    directionality. See ^^

    addison: Direction also depends on base direction. Cannot
    answer from the fragment alone. It is an example I use.

    r12a: And with a hyphen instead of a space? It can do different
    things, depending on the character before it.

    Addison shows an example on his screen.

    "123 456" vs "123-456" when they follow a Hebrew character or

    The 456 may end up to the left of the 123. Same with "123@456"
    and "123~456".

    "123-456" (with a hyphen-minus) keeps the 123 to the left of
    456, while "123 456" (with space or @ or ~ or some others) puts
    456 on the left.

    addison: Should we make this issue an agenda item next week?
    … We should read the issue thread. Are they reinventing bidi?

    <addison> (for next time)

Summary of action items

     1. [33]richard reopen csswg 5570 against cascade-4/5
     2. [34]addison: harvest useful text from geolocation 50 for

Received on Monday, 26 April 2021 09:05:15 UTC