- From: Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
- Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 10:32:04 -0700
- To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>, Phil Archer <phila@w3.org>
- Cc: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@lab126.com>, Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com>, "ishida@w3.org" <ishida@w3.org>, "public-dwbp-comments@w3.org" <public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>, www International <www-international@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <a34b18a4-064b-4432-2f0a-c2f51a6785e6@lbl.gov>
I think it's a fine idea to put both the locale-neutral and the metadata
approaches into example 13, but the metadata is not an example of a
locale-neutral representation of the *data*. We need to show that in the
data itself.
-Annette
On 8/24/16 4:56 AM, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> @Phil, thanks a lot for making the updates! @Annette and Addison
> thanks for the comments and suggestions!
>
> I agree with the changes made until now, but I'd like to answer the
> following comment:
>
> Finally, the example marked prominently as Example 13 looks
> like the
> primary suggestion for implementing the BP, which it isn't
> anymore. I
> think the 2000 Euro example should be at least as prominently
> marked.
>
>
> I sympathise but I'm going to have to leave that to the editors.
> It can be done by simply adding class="example" to the <pre>
> element. But, doing that then means that the example numbers will
> be out of step with the BP numbers from that that point on, which
> I *think* editors have been anxious to avoid?
>
>
> I don't think its a good idea to change the numbers of the examples.
> One solution could be to make some changes on the example 13.
>
> Example 13 shows both the use of locale-neutral representation and
> locale-parameters metadata. We have the tag "xsd:date" in 'dct:issued
> "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date', but we also have 'dct:conformsTo
> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm>' to indicate the
> standard adopted as date format.
>
> :stops-2015-05-05
>
> a dcat:Dataset ;
> dct:title "Bus stops of MyCity" ;
> dcat:keyword "transport","mobility","bus" ;
> dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date ;
> dcat:contactPoint
> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact> ;
> dct:temporal <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015> ;
> dct:spatial <http://www.geonames.org/3399415> ;
> dct:publisher :transport-agency-mycity ;
> dct:accrualPeriodicity
> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A> ;
> dcat:theme :mobility ;
> dcat:distribution :stops-2015-05-05.csv ;
> dct:language <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en> ,
> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt> ;
> dct:conformsTo
> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm> ;
> .
>
> Should we have both ou just xsd:date? If I understood correct, I think
> we should keep just xsd:date. In this case, we can also change the
> example description to mention that we are using a locale-neutral
> representation for date and a locale-parameter metadata (dct:language)
> to specify the languages in which dataset is published. See the
> suggestion below:
>
> The example below shows the use of xsd:date providing a local-neutral
> representation for the issue date of the bus stops dataset
> (|stops-2015-05-05|). Considering that the data from the bus stops
> dataset is already in a locale-specific format, then the property
> |dct:language| is used to declare the languages the dataset is
> published in. If the dataset is available in multiple languages, use
> multiple values for this property.
>
> :stops-2015-05-05
>
> a dcat:Dataset ;
> dct:title "Bus stops of MyCity" ;
> dcat:keyword "transport","mobility","bus" ;
> dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date ;
> dcat:contactPoint
> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact> ;
> dct:temporal <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015> ;
> dct:spatial <http://www.geonames.org/3399415> ;
> dct:publisher :transport-agency-mycity ;
> dct:accrualPeriodicity
> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A> ;
> dcat:theme :mobility ;
> dcat:distribution :stops-2015-05-05.csv ;
> dct:language <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en> ,
> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt> ;
>
>
> Please, let me know what do you think about this.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Berna
>
>
>
>
> -Annette
>
>
> On 8/23/16 7:11 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> Thanks. This looks good to me.
>
> Addison
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org
> <mailto:phila@w3.org>]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 3:29 AM
> To: Phillips, Addison <addison@lab126.com
> <mailto:addison@lab126.com>>; Deirdre Lee
> <deirdre@derilinx.com <mailto:deirdre@derilinx.com>>;
> Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br
> <mailto:bfl@cin.ufpe.br>>;
> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov
> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>
> Cc: ishida@w3.org <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
> public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
> <mailto:public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>; www International
> <www-international@w3.org
> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should
> recommend locale-neutral
> representation #187
>
> Thanks again Addison,
>
> Pls see below.
>
> On 22/08/2016 18:36, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> This looks good. A few comments.
>
> 1. Rather than providing your own definition for
> 'locale', you might
> make
>
> use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].
>
> Done
> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter
> <http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter>
>
> 2. The "why" is still missing something. I would
> suggest adding a
> new first
>
> paragraph explaining locale-neutral first. Something like:
>
> --
> Data values that are machine-readable and not
> specific to any
> particular
>
> language or culture are more durable and less open to
> misinterpretation than
> values that use one of the many different cultural
> representations.
> By using a
> locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to
> establish specific
> interchange rules that vary according to the language
> or location of
> the user.
>
> When the data is already in a locale-specific
> format, providing locale
> parameters... <rest of existing text>
>
>
> Done, exactly as you suggest
> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> <http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>
> With luck... the doc gets a green light from you?
>
> Thanks again
>
> Phil.
>
> --
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Addison
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org
> <mailto:phila@w3.org>]
> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
> To: Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com
> <mailto:deirdre@derilinx.com>>; Phillips, Addison
> <addison@lab126.com
> <mailto:addison@lab126.com>>; Bernadette
> Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br
> <mailto:bfl@cin.ufpe.br>>;
> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov
> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>
> Cc: ishida@w3.org <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
> public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
> <mailto:public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>; www
> International
> <www-international@w3.org
> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should
> recommend
> locale-neutral representation #187
>
> Dear all,
>
> I have taken further steps on this. The result
> can be seen at
> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> <http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>
> 1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim;
> 1a. taken account of
> Annette's suggestion; 1b. replaced inline
> links to BCP47 and CLDR with
>
> references 2.
>
> title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral
> data representations 3.
> moved to Data Formats section as resolved in
> WG meeting on Friday; 4.
> added R- FormatMachineRead to list of evidence
> and thereby updated
> the UCR cross matching; 5. updated the
> Challenges SVG diagram; 6.
> updated my Pull request.
>
> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that
> any links to
> #LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I
> know there are some of
> these, for example, in the Share-PSI project.
>
> HTH
>
> Phil.
>
>
>
> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
>
> HI,
>
> Thank you for your comments Addison. I
> think they make sense and
> should be straight-forward to incorporate.
>
> The title of the BP should probably also
> be updated to something
> like 'Provide locale-neutral data'
>
> Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting
> we also agreed to move
> BP3 to the Data Formats section from the
> Metadata section, which
> would make it BP14, right?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Deirdre
>
>
>
> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> Thanks for starting on this. I think
> the pull request is a good
> start.
> I have some comments on it.
>
> My main concern is that this BP is
> really backwards. It recommends
> to "locale parameter metadata" and
> then says that the simplest way
> to do this is to use locale-neutral
> formats. The recommendation
> should be more like "use
> locale-neutral formats or provide
> locale/language information where
> that's not possible". The pull
> request captures the use of
> locale-neutral, but doesn't really
> explain about when to provide locale
> and language information.
>
> I would change this:
>
> --
> <p class="practicedesc">Provide
> metadata about locale parameters
> (date, time, and number formats,
> language).</p>
> --
>
> To say:
>
> --
> <p class="practicedesc">Use
> locale-neutral data structures and
> values, or, where that is not
> possible, provide metadata about the
> locale used by data values.</p>
> --
>
> I would change:
>
> --
> <p>The simplest method is to use
> local-neutral representations of
> the actual data, and then add metadata
> to provide relevant locale
> information. For example, rather than
> storing "€2000.00" as a
> string, it's strongly preferred to
> exchange a data structure such
> as:</p>
> --
>
> To say:
>
> --
> <p>Most common data representations
> are locale neutral. For
> example, XML Schema types such as
> xsd:integer and xsd: date are
> intended for locale-neutral data
> interchange. Using locale-neutral
> representations allows the data values
> to be processed accurately
> without complex parsing or
> misinterpretation and also allows the
> data to be presented in the format
> most comfortable for the
> consumer of the data. For example,
> rather than storing "€2000,00"
> as a string, it's strongly preferred
> to exchange a data structure
> such as:</p>
> --
>
> Also, note the misspelling of
> "locale-neutral" in the pull request.
>
> I would then go on to add some text
> about when locale parameters
> are needed. Something like:
>
> --
> Some datasets contain values that are
> not or cannot be rendered
> into a locale-neutral format. This is
> particularly true of any
> natural language text values. For each
> data field that can contain
> locale affected or natural language
> text, there should be an
> associated language tag used to
> indicate the language and locale
> of the
>
> data.
>
> This locale information can be used in
> parsing the data or to
> ensure proper presentation and
> processing of the value by the
>
> consumer.
>
> --
>
> (Sorry for not generating a pull
> request of my own)
>
> Addison
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Archer
> [mailto:phila@w3.org
> <mailto:phila@w3.org>]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio
> <bfl@cin.ufpe.br
> <mailto:bfl@cin.ufpe.br>>; Annette
> Greiner
> <amgreiner@lbl.gov
> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>
> Cc: Phillips, Addison
> <addison@lab126.com
> <mailto:addison@lab126.com>>;
> ishida@w3.org <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
> public-dwbp- comments@w3.org
> <mailto:comments@w3.org>; www
> International
> <www-international@w3.org
> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment]
> BP3 should recommend
> locale-neutral representation #187
>
> I took an action on today's call
> to try and address this in BP3.
> You can see the results at
>
> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> <http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>
> This uses some of Addison's text
> directly and highlights the value
> of the xsd datatypes - but retains
> enough of the original BP for
> it to be an amendment rather than
> a whole new one - I hope.
>
> This addresses most of the
> resolution taken today [1] but I have
> not moved the BP to the formats
> section. I leave that to the
> editors who may want to make
> further changes - or argue for it to
> be left where it is, or add
> references from the formats section
> or, or,
>
> or...
>
> I've created the Pull Request
> https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
> <https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447>
>
> Phil.
>
> [1]
> https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
> <https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02>
>
> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette
> Farias Lóscio wrote:
>
> Dear Ishida,
>
> This comment [1] is still
> under discussion [4] and we'd
> like to
> ask your opinion about two of
> our proposals:
>
> 1. to include locale-neutral
> representation ideas as part
> of BP3
> [2], or 2. to include a
> paragraph at the introduction
> of Section
> 8.8 Data Formats [3] to
> discuss the relevance of having
> local-neutral representations.
>
> We also discussed the proposal
> of having a new BP and we agreed
> that we won't have a lot of
> time for a broader review of
> the new
> BP and to collect feedback
> from the community.
>
> Thanks a lot!
> DWBP editors
>
> [1]
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/>
> 2016Jul/0028.html
>
> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> <http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>
> [3]
> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats>
> [4]
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009
> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009>.
> ht
> ml
>
>
> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00
> Annette Greiner
> <amgreiner@lbl.gov
> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>:
>
> Hi Addison,
>
> Thanks for your response,
> and it does make sense. I
> think what I
> am still missing is
> whether there is guidance
> we can point to as
> to how to represent the
> "locale-neutral" data so
> that it can
> most easily be made locale
> specific by existing
> tools. You
> mention "pre-made
> standards for the basic
> data types". Is there
> a recommended list we could
>
> reference?
>
> Thanks for your help!
> -Annette
>
>
> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM,
> Phillips, Addison wrote:
>
> Hi Annette,
>
> Thanks for the note.
> This is a personal
> reply not on behalf of
> the WG.
>
> Locale neutral formats
> are quite common on
> the Web and the
> Internet in general.
> One familiar format
> referenced by your
> document, for example,
> is XML Schema. While the
>
> representations
>
> of numbers, dates, and
> the like in XML Schema
> would be "more
> appropriate" for some
> languages/locales than
> others if given as
> plain text, what
> distinguishes them is
> that they are all
> machine readable and
> intended to
>
> be read by machines for later
> processing.
>
> The display of values
> is a separate, local,
> concern for the
> data's consumer. This
> necessarily means
> choosing specific
> separators (such as
> decimal separators)
> over other, more
> localized values. Save
> for "free
>
> text"
>
> (natural language)
> data, most data
> formats are locale neutral
> and these include
> things like JSON-LD,
> XML Schema, CSV, and so
>
> forth.
>
> Not every possible
> data structure or data
> value is, of course,
> covered fully. For
> example, in my day job
> (I work at Amazon),
> we have many different
> common measurement
> units defined
>
> internally.
>
> To transmit these in a
> locale-neutral manner,
> we need to
> construct our own data
> schemas and
> identifiers. There are
> profoundly many ways
> to measure shoes,
> dresses, auto parts,
> hats, drone
> propellers, and so
> forth. But it would be a
> nightmare to have to
> deal with localized
>
> presentation formats on top of that.
>
> But there are pre-made
> standards for the
> basic data types and
> these are what are
> needed to build almost
> any data structure
> necessary for global
> interchange of data.
>
> Does that make sense?
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Principal SDE, I18N
> Architect (Amazon)
> Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>
> Internationalization
> is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Annette
> Greiner
> [mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov
> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>]
> Sent: Thursday,
> August 04, 2016
> 12:04 PM
> To: ishida@w3.org
> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
> public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
> <mailto:public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>
> Cc: www
> International
> <www-international@w3.org
> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
> Subject: Re: [i18n
> review comment]
> BP3 should recommend
> locale-neutral
> representation #187
>
> Hello on behalf of
> the DWBP WG,
>
> We're interested
> in pursuing this
> concept in our
> best practice
> document, but we
> would like some
> clarification of
> the practice
> of locale neutrality.
> You
> mention the
> variation across
> locales in decimal
> symbol,
> grouping symbol,
> number of grouping
> digits, digit shapes,
> etc., and you give
> an example of a
> locale-neutral data
> structure for monetary
>
> values.
>
> But this structure
> alone does not
> appear to address
> differences in
> decimal symbol,
> grouping symbol,
> number of
> grouping digits,
> or digit shapes.
> It does provide a
> mechanism
> to separately
> specify the units,
> and the example
> uses an
> ISO-4217 currency
> code, both of
> which we agree are
> good ideas.
> Is there a broad
> standard (beyond
> just monetary) for
> addressing the
> other
> symbol/representation
> issues you raised
> that we can address
>
> briefly in our best practice?
>
> Do you consider SI
> units consistent
> with a locale-neutral
>
> approach?
>
> Is there a
> locale-neutral
> standard for
> representing decimal
> numbers (perhaps
> using a period and
> no grouping, as in
> your
>
> example)?
>
> -Annette
>
>
> On 7/22/16 5:32
> AM, ishida@w3.org
> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>
> wrote:
>
> [raised by
> aphillips]
>
> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>
> Best practice
> #3 introduces
> itself as:
>
> Providing
> locale
> parameters
> helps humans
> and computer
> applications
> to work
> accurately
> with things
> like dates,
> currencies and
> numbers that
> may look
> similar but have
> different
> meanings in
> different locales.
>
> But the actual
> best practice
> is to use
> **locale-neutral**
> representations
> that are
> interpreted/displayed
> to end-users
> in a
> locale-appropriate
> manner. For
> example,
> instead of
> storing the
> string
> "€2000.00",
> exchanging a
> data structure
> like the
> following is
> strongly
> preferred:
>
> ```
> "price" {
> "value":
> 2000.00,
>
> "currency": "EUR"
> }
> ```
>
> The date
> examples given
> are all in
> xsd:date
> format, which is
> an excellent
> example of
> using a
> locale-neutral
> format.
>
> Many things
> are dependent
> on locale:
> decimal symbol,
>
> grouping
>
> symbol, number
> of grouping
> digits, digit
> shapes, etc. It's
> because there
> can be wide
> variation
> (sometimes open to
> misinterpretation)
> that sending a
> locale neutral
> format is
>
> preferred for data values.
>
> Note also btw
> that the
> position of
> the currency
> symbol is
> dependent on
> the locale. In
> France it
> would be normal to
> write
>
> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>
> Same even when
> talking about
> USD when using
> $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>
>
> --
>
> Annette Greiner
> NERSC Data and
> Analytics Services
> Lawrence Berkeley
> National
> Laboratory
>
>
> --
> Annette Greiner
> NERSC Data and Analytics
> Services Lawrence Berkeley
> National
> Laboratory
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Phil Archer
> W3C Data Activity Lead
> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>
> http://philarcher.org
> +44 (0)7887 767755
> <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
> @philarcher1
>
> --
>
>
> Phil Archer
> W3C Data Activity Lead
> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>
> http://philarcher.org
> +44 (0)7887 767755
> <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
> @philarcher1
>
> --
>
>
> Phil Archer
> W3C Data Activity Lead
> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>
> http://philarcher.org
> +44 (0)7887 767755 <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
> @philarcher1
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Phil Archer
> W3C Data Activity Lead
> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>
> http://philarcher.org
> +44 (0)7887 767755 <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
> @philarcher1
>
>
>
>
> --
> Bernadette Farias Lóscio
> Centro de Informática
> Universidade Federal de Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Annette Greiner
NERSC Data and Analytics Services
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
Received on Wednesday, 24 August 2016 17:32:43 UTC