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[minutes] Internationalization WG telecon 2015-03-05

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:47:28 +0000
Message-ID: <550AC560.20408@w3.org>
To: www International <www-international@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-i18n-minutes.html



text version:

Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

05 Feb 2015

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2015Feb/0006.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Richard, Dennis, Addison

    Regrets
           Leandro, Steven, Felix

    Chair
           Addison Phillips

    Scribe
           Addison Phillips

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Agenda
          2. [6]Action Items
          3. [7]Info Share
          4. [8]Radar Review
          5. [9]bidi requirements doc
          6. [10]intial letter alignment
          7. [11]AOB?
      * [12]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

Agenda

Action Items

    [13]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

      [13] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

    <DennisTan>
    [14]http://www.w3.org/International/articles/idn-and-iri/

      [14] http://www.w3.org/International/articles/idn-and-iri/

    <scribe> ACTION: Dennis: update article "An Introduction to
    Multilingual Web Addresses" [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-399 - Update article "an introduction
    to multilingual web addresses" [on Dennis Tan Tanaka - due
    2015-02-12].

    action-113?

    <trackbot> action-113 -- Richard Ishida to Work on tidying up
    Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming
    couple of months -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [16]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/113

      [16] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/113

    richard: done a fair bit of editorial work on this
    ... want to discuss later

    action-360?

    <trackbot> action-360 -- Xiaoqian Wu to Survey publishers if
    there are requirements for additional/more specific styles in
    chinese e-books -- due 2014-11-06 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [17]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/360

      [17] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/360

    addison to ping xiaoqian

    action-364?

    <trackbot> action-364 -- Richard Ishida to Document how
    "sticky" language negotiation is done in our pages as an
    article -- due 2014-11-07 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [18]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/364

      [18] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/364

    richard: had a good whack at this

    <scribe> ... in progress

    close action-392

    <trackbot> Closed action-392.

    richard: both documents now published with a joint
    announcement!

    close action-394

    <trackbot> Closed action-394.

    action-394?

    <trackbot> action-394 -- Somnath Chandra to Send richard
    detailed requirements for initial letters in various indic
    scripts -- due 2015-01-29 -- CLOSED

    <trackbot>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/394

      [19] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/394

    richard is halfway through preparing a response to Somnath's
    information

    action-397?

    <trackbot> action-397 -- Addison Phillips to Ping norbert about
    js progress status -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [20]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/397

      [20] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/397

    close action-397

    <trackbot> Closed action-397.

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: follow up with new ES-402 owner for
    status of ES I18N work [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-400 - Follow up with new es-402 owner
    for status of es i18n work [on Addison Phillips - due
    2015-02-12].

    close action-398

    <trackbot> Closed action-398.

Info Share

    richard: mentioned epub/dpub people would like review of an
    article

    <r12a>
    [22]https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_
    on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks

      [22] 
https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks

    richard: they reviewed the above page

    <r12a> Improving text layout and typography on the Web and in
    eBooks

    richard: updated this based on things they said
    ... added a couple of sections
    ... and a few bits in intro
    ... now available in chinese

    <r12a>
    [23]https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_
    on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks_zh

      [23] 
https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks_zh

    richard: xiaoqian translated it

    <r12a> 在Web和数字出版中优化文字排版

    richard: above link is Chinese
    ... created another page

    <r12a> Links to text layout and typography information

    <r12a> [24]https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Layout_links

      [24] https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Layout_links

    richard: this is off-top-of-head links to non-w3c publications
    ... various aspects of digital publishing
    ... stuff on arabic, chinese, urdu, mongolian, etc.
    ... please add other information you know of

Radar Review

    [25]https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar

      [25] https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar

    [26]https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Project_radar

      [26] https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Project_radar

    richard: got suggestions for greek styles that I haven't
    responded to yet

bidi requirements doc

    <r12a>
    [27]http://www.w3.org/International/docs/html-bidi-requirements
    /editme.html

      [27] 
http://www.w3.org/International/docs/html-bidi-requirements/editme.html

    richard: ported to respec
    ... thing that's difficult is what to do about status updates
    ... often says "currently state is <x>"
    ... changed in some cases "state in HTML4 is"
    ... alternative is
    ... see section 2.2.1
    ... turned update into "note"
    ... so "publish in original form, but brief updates on what
    happened"

    (discussion)

    addison: some mumble about "updates are as of pub date, no
    future updates"

    richard: the one link is a googledoc so not appropriate
    reference
    ... make a wiki page or similar?

    addison: make as appendix?

    richard: hmm... could do...?

    <r12a> [28]http://rishida.net/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb

      [28] http://rishida.net/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb

    richard: went back and reviewed CSS discussions
    ... people talking about bopomofo had a partial view of the
    world
    ... so tried to summarize the overall picture
    ... both "what ruby does" and what we know about it
    ... further discussion refined for use cases
    ... document reasons why we don't want to do things people
    repeatedly suggest
    ... current thinking is that we would create new fonts
    ... that would put tone marks in right place
    ... ted o'connor just sent an email saying apple working on it,
    think browser should position tone mark
    ... no evidence in testing yet
    ... bobby created font and I created a test for it
    ... some people bobby knows, should say

    <r12a> [29]http://rishida.net/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb#forward

      [29] http://rishida.net/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb#forward

    richard: four tone marks
    ... three of which are like diacritics
    ... not combining though
    ... fourth is spacing (light tone)
    ... question is where to put it
    ... light tone goes before the bopomofo letters
    ... IMEs enforce typing the tone mark last
    ... bobby has a tool that looks up bopomofo and creates markup
    for you
    ... msft has something similar

    addison: problem is that tone mark should be first in document
    (so reposition)

    richard: looking for authoritative references
    ... documents done "carefully" put tone mark first
    ... can find "bad" examples

    addison: concerned that a font is probably not the right
    solution: prefer the mark to appear where encoded?

    richard: the above #forward says what is likely to happen
    unless apple pushes back
    ... only works for ruby unless you have a specific context in
    mind
    ... lots of pages of plain bopomofo text
    ... transcriptions and such

    addison: hard on implementers, since have to integrate fonts
    into overall scehem
    ... plus it's not CSS or HTML

    (further discussion)

intial letter alignment

    richard: have tracker issue
    ... css inline document specifies one way of doing drop cap
    ... and there might be more
    ... spec currently has two properties
    ... first one is "want this to be x lines deep and x lines
    high"
    ... so drops down so many lines
    ... (will send email to clarify)
    ... not size of letter
    ... size from baseline to cap head
    ... not same height as ascender
    ... so things like circumflex stick out the top
    ... and descenders like ogonek or on 'g' stick out bottom
    ... and have to make "additional space" for those things
    ... but size of letter is from cap height and baseline
    ... cap height line aligns with top of first line
    ... cap height is not something you worry about in devanagari
    ... somnath sent me basic idea is a "box" certain number of
    lines high
    ... and whole character fits into box
    ... if without subjoining characters, it would look big
    ... if you had a lot of subjoining, character would look quite
    small
    ... a lot of languages have colored boxes you fit character
    into
    ... slight additional complication
    ... you do certain alignments
    ... align "hanging baseline"
    ... if you have one
    ... try to align with first line of capped text
    ... box is positioned relative to a glyph feature
    ... vowel sign above actually changes top of box
    ... unclear if the bottom of box changes to correspond

    addison: a "when you see it, know it's right" situation :-)

    richard: works with deva or bengali
    ... but not with some other scripts? tibetan......
    ... read a long list of emails yesterday

    <somnath> need detailed feedback on my document to work towards
    an acceptable solution.

    <r12a> somnath see earlier in the meeting, i am half-way
    through a response to you

    <r12a> but i want to build in the wider picture at the same
    time

    <r12a> so it may take a little while longer

    <somnath> sure ok

    <DennisTan> Have to drop off. Bye.

AOB?

    [30]https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CaseForCaselessCSS

      [30] https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CaseForCaselessCSS

    richard: need to say something about unicode contorls such as
    word joiner
    ... in charmod
    ... should have a section on that

    addison: I'll whip up a starter section on that in charmod norm
    draft

    <r12a> [31]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOXQo7nURs0

      [31] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOXQo7nURs0

    <scribe> Scribe: Addison Phillips

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: addison: follow up with new ES-402 owner for
    status of ES I18N work [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Dennis: update article "An Introduction to
    Multilingual Web Addresses" [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

      [32] http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html#action02
      [33] http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html#action01

    [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 19 March 2015 12:47:37 UTC

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