Re: Encoding Standard at F2F

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Norbert Lindenberg <
w3@norbertlindenberg.com> wrote:

> What about email archives on the web? I'd be surprised if there weren't
> any that just take the bytes of subjects and bodies of email messages and
> stuff them into HTML frames. Even Yahoo Mail and Hotmail did that until a
> few years ago.
>

It's very unfortunate that two major web mail services had been broken in
such a horrible way until a few years ago. ;-)  It's good for everybody
that they have been fixed since.

Anyway, I don't think that a potential existence of antiquated/broken email
(list) archiving programs is a good justification to keep ISO-2022-KR (and
GB-HZ).

BTW, when ISO-2022-KR was around in 1990's, the dominant MUA of the time
(sendmail) was patched (or combined with MDAs like procmail), at most
Korean Unix hosts, to convert incoming emails in ISO-2022-KR to EUC-KR. So,
the number of emails kept in ISO-2022-KR at mail(ing list) archives is much
smaller than the actual number of emails exchanged in ISO-2022-KR.

Jungshik




>
> Norbert
>
>
> On Nov 4, 2012, at 19:23 , Ishii, Koji a | Koji | EBJB wrote:
>
> > I think the spec should cover all relevant technologies around W3C, not
> only the web pages. I know little about how often ISO-2022-KR is used in
> other places than Web, but you should also pay attention to e-mail and
> other careers of W3C technologies.
> >
> > Microsoft once disabled automatic detection of ISO-2022-JP in MS10-090
> for the security concern but turned it on again inMS11-003 due to its bad
> impact. As you said and as Kuro confirmed, ISO-2022-JP is still an
> important encoding for the W3C to support.
> >
> > Are you sure ISO-2022-KR and GB-HZ are not, considering all places W3C
> technologies are used including e-mail, TV, etc.?
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Koji
> >
> > From: Jungshik SHIN (신정식) [mailto:jshin1987@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 12:20 PM
> > To: Anne van Kesteren
> > Cc: www-international@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: Encoding Standard at F2F
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thank you for the note.
> >
> > I wonder what consideration has been given to the inclusion of
> ISO-2022-KR and GB-HZ, two 7-bit encodings that are extremely rare on the
> web (if used at all) and are 'security risks' (in a sense) like other 7-bit
> encodings (e.g. UTF-7 that is not included).
> >
> > We cannot drop ISO-2022-JP lightly because it's still used somewhere
> even though it's much less widely used than EUC-JP or Shift-JIS.
> >
> > OTOH, ISO-2022-KR has never been meant for the web and it's safe to say
> that virtually no web page uses it. It's designed for emails (RFC 1557) in
> early 1990's and it got out of favor  even for emails in late 1990's
> because either EUC-KR (later UTF-8) with 8bit ESMTP or EUC-KR with
> base64/qp worked just fine. For web pages, there's absolutely no reason to
> use ISO-2022-KR from the beginning and it's not used.
> >
> > For the last 20 years, I've seen web pages (other than test pages) in
> that encoding only once or twice. I'm a Korean speaker and I've visited
> numerous web pages.
> >
> > To a slightly less extent, the same should hold for GB-HZ. It started
> its life to use in Usenet (and email), but using that on the web does not
> make much sense. I can't say about GB-HZ as strongly as about ISO-2022-KR,
> but my experience with Chrome development (below) is an indication that
> it's virtually unused.
> >
> > Chrome didn't support either of them until about 2 years ago. They're
> added mainly because of http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/  IIRC.  When
> neither is supported, I haven't had any complaint from Chrome users.
> >
> > Jungshik
> >
> >
> >
> > 2012. 11. 3. 오전 7:31에 "Anne van Kesteren" <annevk@annevk.nl>님이 작성:
> > I joined the I18N WG for an hour or so at their F2F in TPAC to discuss
> > http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/
> >
> > We basically went through the document for a high-level overview of
> > what it attempts to do. We also concluded it is good enough to publish
> > as a FPWD, provided someone in the I18N WG has the time to do the
> > switch in style (from green to blue).
> >
> > Based on feedback from Richard Ishida and Kawabata Taichi during that
> > meeting I filed these bugs:
> >
> > * https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19816
> > * https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19817
> >
> > If there was any other feedback during that session I failed to
> > capture I would appreciate if you could help me out. Issues with the
> > specification are best recorded in Bugzilla:
> >
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=WHATWG&component=Encoding
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://annevankesteren.nl/
> >
>
>