- From: Doron Shikmoni <P85025@VM.BIU.AC.IL>
- Date: Sun Jun 15 12:39:09 1997
- To: David Rashty +972-2-6584848 <RASHTY@WWW4.HUJI.AC.IL>, Dani Ilan <standard@NetVision.net.il>, Stefan Fuchs <sf@bezeq.co.il>, Israel Ervin Gidali <gidali@vnet.ibm.com>, Nati Guedalia <natig@ncc.co.il>, Gil Mor <gilmor@microsoft.com>, Mati ALLOUCHE <matia@vnet.ibm.com>, Moshe Shalom <moshe_shalom@easx.co.il>, Yevgenia Palanker <pal@actcom.co.il>, Doron Shikmoni <P85025@VM.BIU.AC.IL>, "Martin J.Duerst" <mduerst@ifi.unizh.ch>, Francois Yergeau <yergeau@alis.com>, Gavin Thomas Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>, Glenn Adams <glenn@spyglass.com>, www-html@w3.org, Khaled Sherif <sherifk@caivm1.vnet.ibm.com>, Jeff Rosenschein <jeffr@accentsoft.com>, Chris Wendt <christw@microsoft.com>, John McConnell <johnmcco@microsoft.com>, Yaniv Feinberg <yanivf@microsoft.com>, Erik van der Poel <erik@netscape.com>, Uri Postavsky <urip@rtlsoft.com>, Uzzi Ornan <ORNAN@cs.technion.ac.il>, Chris Lilley <Chris.Lilley@sophia.inria.fr>, "Mark H. David" <mhd@WORLD.STD.COM>, Edward Resnick <Edward.Resnick@Israel.Sun.COM>, ILAN Hebrew List <ilan-h@taunivm.tau.ac.il>, Jonathan Rosenne <rosenne@NetVision.net.il>
Hello, In response to David Rashty's posting, and subsequent followups: Most of the facts presented in the posting are inarguably true. It is indeed true that, at this point in time, the major part of the Hebrew HTML pages are using the "Visual" ordering scheme for representing bidirectional text. It is also true that support for Implicit ordering, a-la Unicode 2.0 and RFC2070 is scarce to say the least. The current draft of the SI 4281 (Hebrew HTML) includes a description of the Visual ordering support in an appendix, as "Current Practice". This means that it is "acknowledged" - but not recognized as being standard. As far as I can say, the reasons for *not* definining it as standard are as follows: 1. SI 4281 draws mainly from RFC2070 (which draws from Unicode 2.0). Visual ordering is not standard, according to RFC2070. Adding this ordering to 4281 will make it orthogonal to RFC2070; It will be possible for a product to be compliant with SI 4281, while not being RFC2070 compliant. This is an extremely undesirable effect. Moreover: international software makers give little or no attention to Israeli standards. Their primary concern is to follow international and Internet standards. Currently, SI 4281 is a superset of RFC2070 (I'm sure Jony will correct me if I'm wrong on this one), but is not orthogonal to it. 2. It is in the primary public interest to have the market "shift" gracefully into Implicit ordering of bidirectional text. Having SI 4281 specify Implicit as standard, will help pushing non-standard implementations (agreeably, the vast majority of the current sites) towards migration to standards-based Hebrew support. On the other hand, adopting Visual ordering as standard is likely to "freeze" the Israeli Web-making market for a long time to come. Recently, the Knesset (Israeli Parliament) has appointed a set of committees to recommend required action items for the preparation of Israel to the Information Technology age. One of the committees (which I had the honor of chairing, and of which David Rashty was a member) dealt with Hebrew and standardization. One of the primary recommendations made by this committee was adopting of RFC2070- and Unicode 2.0-based solutions for all "open" (mainly, Internet) information bases, in future government contracts. This, of course, assuming that such solutions are available. Another recommendation is to prefer, when possible, standards-based solutions that are *not* dependent on a special, locally available platform (i.e., a Hebrew-specific OS) - again, when such are available. The rationale behind these recommendations is, that the market should be "helped" to move in the right direction; using the government buying force as a lever to achieve this goal is considered to be such help. Combining both recommendations should hopefully lead to the "ideal" situation, where bidirectional support is available on all platforms, not just locally-available ones. We know for a fact, that (with or without relation to these recommendations) browser vendors are working on RFC2070 compliancy, with no OS dependecy. You should note that leaving Visual ordering as "non-standard current practice" is not making current implementations "illegal" or otherwise unusable. Visual ordering has never been "standard" in any specification, and, in this context, will continue to maintain the same status: an informal "hack" that works (sort of), until fully-standard implementations mature. We all realize that Visual ordering of bidirectional text will stay with us for a considerable amount of time. At the same time we need to recognize that it is an interim solution, and by no means a final goal. A standard is not supposed to collect all ad-hoc solutions and give them a "Kosher" tag. It should mark a desired goal, and define the baseline to achieve this goal. This is what I believe SI 4281 should do (and is doing now). On top of all this, you must recognize that the current implementations of Visual ordering, being (after all) a "hack", are imperfect, to use an understatement. Printing, cutting/pasting and many other functions are sort-of possible in various levels of difficulty. This is not something you can standardize as is. Therefore, it is clear that to have a good support of the *Visual* ordering scheme, software (mainly browsers) will have to be modified by their vendors. Considering point #1 above, this is highly improbable. Sincerely, Doron Shikmoni
Received on Sunday, 15 June 1997 12:39:09 UTC