- From: Todd Fahrner <fahrner@pobox.com>
- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:49:05 -0800
- To: Clive Bruton <clive@typonaut.demon.co.uk>, <www-font@w3.org>
- Cc: <www-style@w3.org>
At 5:22 PM +0000 2/2/00, Clive Bruton wrote: >Karlsson Kent - keka wrote at 02/02/00 16:20 > > >Assume the (lowercase dominated) headings are asked (by the page author) > >to be of x-height 7 mm in Flemish Script, the body text (lowercase > >dominated) to be of x-height 3.5 mm Verdana. > >I think trying to specify type on screen in mm would be a mistake, but... <aside>Not any more than specifying it in points. Any use of absolute length units for the screen media type is ill-advised. The CSS Recs support this assertion obliquely, and the WAI authoring guidelines explicitly.</aside> > >Whatever font substitutions > >are done (keeping the asked-for x-heights to a reasonable degree), one > >would still get a proper percieved size difference between the heading > >and the body text. Right? Or??? > >Yes, great. What would the line-height be? For a clue on this look at the >examples on the CSS2 page, where line-height is maintained and ascender >and descenders clash where the x-height has been taken as the defintive >measurement. Look, Verdana and Flemish Script are together in the example because extreme examples make certain points very clear, which is useful when more realistically subtle illustrations might be lost upon the audience. Unfortunately, they also provide bait for reductio ad absurdam arguments among the cognoscenti. It is exceedingly unlikely that one of these faces will be substituted for another in practice, at least not as long as author and reader are trying to get along, which is the business at hand. It's well-established practice in CSS to specify font families in a prioritized list, with the generic family (sans, serif, script, etc.) last in the list, so mixing up script and sans-serif is the result of incompetent usage, not a language design flaw. (And anyway, I consider the ascender/descender clash less tragic than the "unadjusted substitution" alternative; really cautious authors can spec extra line-height to be on the safe side, and god knows typical Web text would benefit from that!) >Strange calculations that show what happens in extremes, or in real world >situations!? > >Please, show me a "real world" calculation that fits your model? problem: 1. Users A and B have set up their agents to default to 12px Times. Or Minion Web if you prefer. 2. Author calls for body text to be in Verdana (with fallbacks to Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif), in the user's preferred size (no size specified). 3. User A calls up site, and remarks that body text looks too big, horsey, silly. 4. Author/designer/marketing director re-specifies the body text as .8em Verdana. Verdana now looks approximately as large as Times at the user's preferred size. 5. User B calls up site, doesn't have Verdana, but does have Arial. And sees it reduced to near-illegibility. 6. [a digression] font size fails to inherit into table elements in Netscape 4.x and WinIE (a cherished bug), so author selects both body and TD and sets both to .8em. Since these elements are in an ancestor/descendant relationship, text in TD ought really be .64em (.8x.8), which is what users with conformant agents (MacIE, Opera, Mozilla) will see: illegibly ill-resolved. solution: 1. Users A and B have set up their agents to default to 12px Times. Or Minion Web if you prefer. 2. Author calls for body text to be in Verdana (with fallbacks to Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif), in the user's preferred size (no size specified), and provides the aspect of Verdana as the font-size-adjust value: .58. 3. User A calls up site, and his/her agent compares the aspect of Times (recorded in the user stylesheet/prefs) with that of the specified Verdana, and scales Verdana to 10px to equalize x-height with 12px Times. Extra added bonus: since the line-height remains at the value appropriate to "solid" 12px Times, Verdana has now gained a little air. And there is much rejoicing. 4. User B calls up site, doesn't have Verdana, but does have Arial. Since Arial and Times have very similar aspects, no scaling occurs, and the size looks/feels right to everybody. Remember, we're talking about a design grid with fewer pixels than you have fingers and toes - no sense agonizing over the uncompensated hairline serifs. 5. [the digression rejoined] Since no "medium" font size is ever specified, there are no legacy CSS inheritance issues to contend with. >If you scale x-height you also have to scale the other factors of >design/perception. We can't have the ultimate solution all at once, Clive. Baby steps before pole-vaulting. Not even the 1996 CSS-1 specification has been completely implemented yet, anywhere. -- Todd Fahrner
Received on Wednesday, 2 February 2000 14:49:12 UTC