Re: Moving past last call for HTML5

Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, Sam Ruby wrote:
>> For starters, there is an interesting gap between 100% and 50.000001%.
> 
> I wasn't specifically meaning 50%; there are as you say a number of ways 
> of achieving "consensus" without achieving "unanimous consensus", ranging 
> from everyone-except-people-who-disagree-with-everything-on-principle down 
> all the ways past 50% to a mere plurality. If our goal is to aim for one 
> of these levels, it would be helpful to know which level we are aiming for 
> since it would affect the way one would approach the goal of publishing a 
> last call draft.

At the IETF, there is a mantra of "rough consensus and running code".
As I read your proposed milestones, I see Last Call first preceding
running code in a number of instances.  Am I misreading this?

While it is possible to gain consensus without running code, it isn't
obvious to me that it is desirable to do so.  Rob's approach is to start
from running code.

>> To the extent that the document you are editing accepts input from 
>> places other than the public-html mailing list, the concern about the 
>> "inordinate amount of bureaucracy" doesn't fully apply.
> 
> Not to the content of the spec, but it might to the decision of whether we 
> have consensus within the group (since that might not represent consensus 
> amongst the wider Web community).

To the extent that people like you are hooked into the wider web
community, it is worth noting that it would be virtually impossible to
have consensus on anything in this smaller group that would not reflect
the wishes of the wider Web community.

I will also note that the wider Web community is is like the proverbial
elephant[1].  In particular, this I see a quite different view of the
very same web reflected here:

   http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/f2fkc-agenda

I don't know yet how to reconcile these different views.

I'll come back to the "inordinate amount of bureaucracy" later in this 
email.

>>> What bar will you be looking for when I say "ok there is no 
>>> outstanding feedback, let's publish a Last Call draft"?
>> I don't have the full answer for that question, but let me start with 
>> this: no, I do not believe that votes are something we should employ 
>> except as a last resort.
> 
> Ok. I think it would be helpful to have a firm idea of how we want to 
> approach this problem sooner rather than later, if we are to not slip past 
> October.

It would be helpful if we had a firm idea of how we want to approach the 
problem of section 1.5.4 sooner rather than later, if we are to not slip 
past October.  This is not an issue that where implementors "vote with 
your feet".  What bar are you looking for?

You question the viability of the W3C published dates.  Permit me the
same with respect to your October date.

The part of the process dealing with assessing consensus is not amenable 
to algorithmic description.   Some examples from which you might be able 
to generalize: We have rough consensus on legacy-compat.   We have rough 
consensus on Karl and Henri's license use cases.  We have rough 
consensus on canvas being in scope.  The first two I cited did not take 
very long to achieve.  And I believe that if similar processes were 
followed, this group could get more efficient on processing issues. 
Even more complicated ones.

Giving the smaller surface area, and the backing of running code for
everything in Rob's draft, I am considerably more optimistic about the
prospects of attaining W3C consensus for a draft with his scope to
proceed onto Last Call in 2010.  Given my past experience with Rob, it 
would not surprise me if it made 2009.  Perhaps even October.

In particular, I will note that section 1.5.4 is simply not an issue 
with Rob's draft.

>> For the near term the low hanging fruit is as follows: [...] for you to 
>> consider Rob's approach to @summary, @profile, and @alt.
> 
> Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what approach you mean.

Rob's statements on this matter:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478665#c3
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0128.html

Related example from the same editor:

http://www.atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/atom-format-spec.php#rfc.section.4.1.1.1

As a concrete example, let's explore "summary".  To the extent that I 
understand it, your position is that the summary attribute is 
non-conforming, and people who wish it to be so must provide a what 
appears to be an unspecified amount of supporting data if they wish this 
to be changed.

My read is that Rob would simply say that summary is a part of the 
grammar and would prepare an even-toned cautionary note directed at 
consumers.  Others would be welcome to draft alternative wordings for 
the cautionary note for consideration.

Same issue.  Same W3C.  Two different approaches.  One involves an 
"inordinate amount of" people documenting issues to be tracked and 
working groups to document official positions.

- Sam Ruby

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Men_and_an_Elephant

Received on Friday, 20 February 2009 11:33:25 UTC