- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:14:52 -0500
- To: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Link: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-minutes.html
Plain text follows:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18 Nov 2014
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-irc
Attendees
Present
Joseph_Scheuhammer, +1.416.848.aaaa, David_Bolter,
Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly
Regrets
Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Chair
Joseph_Scheuhammer
Scribe
joanie, clown
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]ISSUE-587/ACTION-1528: (David) Investigate the
proper ia2 mappings for aria-current.
2. [5]Do we meet next week?
3. [6]ISSUE-587/ACTION-1527: (Cynthia) Investigate the
proper uia mappings for aria-current.
4. [7]ISSUE-587/ACTION-1529: (Joseph) Investigate the
proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current.
5. [8]ISSUE-587: (All) discuss use of events when
aria-current changes.
6. [9]ISSUE-587/ACTION-1527: (Cynthia) Investigate the
proper uia mappings for aria-current.
* [10]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 18 November 2014
<clown> agenda: this
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
ISSUE-587/ACTION-1528: (David) Investigate the proper ia2 mappings
for aria-current.
<clown> action-1528?
<trackbot> action-1528 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate
the proper ia2 mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[11]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1528
[11] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1528
JS: There's a new aria-current in the spec.
... Briefly, if you're in a navigational structure like a TOC
off to the side, your current location is your place in the
TOC.
... You could also use it in a wizard or other step-by-step
process.
DB: Do we have a status role for that?
JS: We're not changing the role.
DB: I'm wondering if this could be done in another way.
JS: The GNOME people are going to go with ATK_STATIC_ACTIVE
[12]https://bug740044.bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment
.cgi?id=290571
[12]
https://bug740044.bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=290571
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: reads the docs on ATK_STATE_ACTIVE
Indicates a window is currently the active window, or an object
is the active subelement within a container or table.
ATK_STATE_ACTIVE should not be used for objects which have
ATK_STATE_FOCUSABLE or ATK_STATE_SELECTABLE: Those objects
should use ATK_STATE_FOCUSED and ATK_STATE_SELECTED
respectively. ATK_STATE_ACTIVE is a means to indicate that an
object which is not focusable and not selectable is the
currently-active item within its parent container.
DB: regarding this change, you could still have a clickable
thing be an ACTIVE thing?
JD: Sure.
DB: When you say, "objects should use ATK_STATE_FOCUSED and
ATK_STATE_SELECTED respectively". Is that and/or or both?
JD: It can be either. Something can be unselected in a
mult-select list box, but still focussed.
DB: does ATK have a multi-selected state?
JD: multi-selecatable.
... The new definition is to anticipate a complaint that isn't
aria-current just focused?
DB: who want aria-current, and what's it for?
JD: Here's my use case.
... <describes ordering online>
... <describles a wizard step-by-step process>
BG: Let me clarify. The primary reason for aria-current is
there are situations on the web where an element is marked as
current in a collection.
... It could be a list of items, or a group of images, or a
list of dates.
... Also pagination links, where one is current.
... There is not textual way to indicate which one is current.
... Sighted users can see some sort of highlighting.
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
JS: I'm looking for the aria-current spec text.
DB: I'm going through the process of, whenever you see a
proposed aria attribute:
<clown>
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Nov/003
9.html
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Nov/0039.html
DB: 1) Is it really needed?
... 2) Is it as powerful as it can get?
... I think we have met 1.
... [Describes example in which a live region wouldn't work]
JS: aria-current has nothing to do with focus
... Go back to Joanie's shopping cart example.
... You're not focused on the step.
DB: I totally get that.
... The use case I'm trying to imagine is a web page in which
you might have one or more aria-currents on a page.
... I'm thinking of a dynamic page in which one or more
aria-current's change.
... So my example -- bad example -- is the colors of a legend
changing depening on what country you selected.
JS: The one (example) that was originally proposed was for
aria-selected.
... But that was rejected as being different.
DB: A screen reader has to know if aria-current changes for
some reason.
BG: I don't think that's needed necessarily.
... The author can surround nested regions with labels if
needed.
... It's obvious from the context that the element refers to
that region.
... So I don't think it's necessary to expose anything other
than that the element is current.
DB: Is there a situation in which some screen reader notices
this is aria-current. Does it need to know the relationship
between it and what makes it current?
BG: I don't think so. Dominic from Google mentioned it in the
context in of shadow DOM.
JS: I mentioned aria-currentfor if you have multiple
aria-currents on the page
... But Matt, James, and others said it wasn't needed.
DB: Is it expected that you'll only have one?
JS: No, as far as I know that is not necessarily expected.
BG: [Agrees] but I don't think that's a problem.
JS: [Describes example of page with multiple portlets]
BG: I think it depends on context.
JS: I remember others saying that too.
DB: I'm just wondering about getting people to use it.
... It has to be clear how to use it.
JS: True.
... aria-currentfor got dropped; aria-current is all we need.
BG: Cynthia said she was going to try to put it in UIA in
January, I think
JS: Is there something similar to STATE_ACTIVE in IA2?
... ATK and IA2 are pretty similar.
DB: Does ATK have STATE_ARMED? Or was that Java?
JS: Java
JD: Actually ATK too, but it's stupid and I want it deprecated.
JS: The "it" there is ambiguous.
JD: [Makes no comment]
DB: So there's a STATE_ACTIVE, but it's about the active
window.
<clown>
[14]http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs
/html/_accessible_states_8idl.html#aafecbfb195aaf7050dc8f75a783
3bd5fabf466265c1f5b45dd53c86deb28220bc
[14]
http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/_accessible_states_8idl.html#aafecbfb195aaf7050dc8f75a7833bd5fabf466265c1f5b45dd53c86deb28220bc
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: Years ago, ACTIVE was just for windows.
... But then, it was modified to include "sub-elements">
... We fixed the docs for ATK to clarify it.
... Couldn't we do the same for IA2 docs?
... It would mean little change to the IA2 implementation.
Note: IA2 documentations for STATE_ACTIVE is: "Indicates a
window is currently the active window, or is an active
subelement within a container or table."
<joanie> scribnick: joanie
<joanie> JS: We've been discussing this for 1/2 an hour now.
<joanie> JS: David should ask Alex Surkov about using
STATE_ACTIVE in IA2 for this.
<joanie> DB: Agreed.
<joanie> DB: I think I'll assign the action to him.
<joanie> JS: The current due date is today. Next tuesday?
<joanie> DB: Sure.
Do we meet next week?
<joanie> JS: In the States it's Thanksgiving Holiday week.
<joanie> JS: I'll be here. David will be here.
<joanie> JD: I will be here.
<joanie> BG: I'll be around on Tuesday.
<joanie> RESOLUTION: We'll have a meeting next week as usual.
<joanie> DB: When do we break for holidays?
<joanie> JS: The 16th might be iffy for me, though I'm not
sure. I'll definitely be out on the 23rd and 30th.
<joanie> JS: The above refer to December.
ISSUE-587/ACTION-1527: (Cynthia) Investigate the proper uia mappings
for aria-current.
<joanie> JS: Cynthia is not here
action-1529?
<trackbot> action-1529 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate the
proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18
-- OPEN
<trackbot>
[15]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529
[15] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529
<joanie> JS: This is mine because it was originally Joanie's
and she's done the work.
<joanie> JS: Given her notes, I'm ready to add the mappings.
<joanie> JS: I guess I need to wait until the other platforms.
<davidb> JD: what about Mac?
<scribe> ACTION: James Craig to investigate the AXAPI mappings
for aria-current. [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> 'James' is an ambiguous username. Please try a
different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g.,
jcraig, jhawkins2, jnurthen).
<scribe> ACTION: jcraig to investigate the AXAPI mappings for
aria-current. [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1535 - Investigate the axapi mappings
for aria-current. [on James Craig - due 2014-11-25].
<joanie> JS: [Creates new action for AX API mappings]
action-1535?
<trackbot> action-1535 -- James Craig to Investigate the axapi
mappings for aria-current. -- due 2014-11-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[18]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1535
[18] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1535
ISSUE-587/ACTION-1529: (Joseph) Investigate the proper atk/at-spi
mappings for aria-current.
ISSUE-587: (All) discuss use of events when aria-current changes.
<joanie> JS: When Joanie passed back action-1529, I wondere if
aria-current should spawn an event.
<joanie> JS: In which case we need to add this to the event
mapping table.
<joanie> JS: I brought this up yesterday at the meeting.
<joanie> JS: James Craig thought we should make it a "MAY"
<scribe> scribenick: clown
JS: ATK is going to just make such an event.
JD: That's not quite right.
<joanie> action-1529
<trackbot> action-1529 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate the
proper atk/at-spi mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18
-- OPEN
<trackbot>
[19]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529
[19] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1529
JD: Well, there's the events table (i.e. ARIA), and there's
what is expected when the state of an accessible object changes
in <insert any ATK implementation here, including desktop
applications and toolkits>.
... With respect to the latter, the expectation has always been
that as a general rule, when the state changes, a state-change
notification is expected.
... Otherwise, how is an AT on the platform to know?
... It says in the ATK documentation that implementors are
expected to provide notiifcations of state changes.
... ATK doesn't magically do the event. It is still expected
that the implementor will do the event.
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
JS: When I said "ATK is going to do this anyway" I really meant
"A proper ATK implementation is going to do this anyway."
... James Craig wants it to be a MAY because we currently have
no consensus that it's needed or wanted by any AT.
... Cynthia wanted it to be a SHOULD because she wanted it to
be stronger.
... I will put it in as a MAY for AX API and a MUST for ATK.
But that means we have different normative requirements for
platforms.
... I'm not sure what to do for UIA.
... Cynthia wants a SHOULD.
... James Craig went on to say that if this is useful and we
all agree, we can then change it to a MUST.
... In other words he's being cautious.
ISSUE-587/ACTION-1527: (Cynthia) Investigate the proper uia mappings
for aria-current.
JS: We've been talking about mappings for aria-current.
... We pretty much have ATK finished.
<clown> action-1527
<trackbot> action-1527 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate the
proper uia mappings for aria-current -- due 2015-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1527
[20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1527
JS: David is going to follow up with Surkov on IA2.
... What should we use for UIA?
CS: Selection -- it would become a selected item.
... Which means that it needs to have -- there's a container
that's required.
... I put notes in the bug.
... The closest thing we have is selected.
... But that means we need to have a container.
... I think this is related to what Joanie was talking about
the other day on the call.
... About traversing the tree, etc.
... I could ask for a new UIA API, but I'd need additional
justification for why this isn't selection.
BG: It is possible to have something with a current and a
selected at the same time. And they wouldn't be the same thing.
CS: What's the difference?
BG: If you have a tree, and the current item in the tree is a
book and there is a current page.
CS: That sounds like the difference between focus and selection
BG: When you're arrowing through it, you can have something
selected and not be current at the same time.
... But one could be both selected and current.
... [Gives an example with JAWS]
CS: How does that work for tabs?
... Or multiple selections in a listbox?
BG: With tabs you have aria-expanded.
JS: You can have multiple tabs expanded, but only one is
selected.
CS: I was talking about browser tabs
BG: [example with remote callback]
CS: We already have focus and selection.
... The difference between focus and selection seems to be the
difference between selection and current.
BG: This also applies to static.
... People didn't want aria-selected because it's going to
cause confusion with interactive widgets.
... People will start putting it on the wrong widgets.
CS: Why is that?
BG: If you can put aria-selected on everything, people are
going to start putting it on everything
CS: I think the best mapping in UIA is going to be selected.
... I think that's what we do with similar native widgets in
Windows.
BG: [Asks about experience in Windows on calendar]
CS: [Describes it]
BG: So basically it's the distinction between selected and
focused is not always the same.
CS: Correct. Selection and focus are not always the same.
BG: In the spec, there are many cases where they are the same.
CS: And in the mapping you'll see that they are all different
... Sometimes they are the same, but not always.
JS: Can I break in to say the meeting is over?
BG: Can you post this (the Windows mapping) to the list?
CS: I can post that to the list.
... I think I posted something last week, but I can do it
again.
... I think we've gotten as far as we can without further
input.
action-1530
<trackbot> action-1530 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate uia
mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[21]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1530
[21] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1530
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: James Craig to investigate the AXAPI mappings for
aria-current. [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: jcraig to investigate the AXAPI mappings for
aria-current. [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-aapi-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 18 November 2014 21:15:56 UTC