- From: Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu>
- Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:05:14 -0500
- To: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Link: http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-minutes.html
Plain text follows:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
14 Jan 2014
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2014Jan/0005.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/14-aapi-irc
Attendees
Present
verytired_David_Bolter, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
Bryan_Garaventa, Michael_Cooper, cyns, Cooper
Regrets
Chair
Joseph_Scheuhammer
Scribe
clown
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]ACTION-1320: Consider implementing above using
"offscreen" in AAPI.
2. [6]Agenda for next week's face-to-face:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
3. [7]Update re: PF decision HTMl5 @hidden plus
aria-hidden='false'
4. [8]ACTION-1320: Consider implementing above using
"offscreen" in AAPI.
5. [9]Agenda for next week's face-to-face:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
* [10]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 14 January 2014
<bgaraventa1979> Bryan Garaventa
Update re: PF decision HTMl5 @hidden plus aria-hidden='false'
([11]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574)
[11] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574)
<MichaelC> [12]http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
[12] http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
<scribe> scribenick: clown
ACTION-1320: Consider implementing above using "offscreen" in AAPI.
Agenda for next week's face-to-face:
[13]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
[13] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
([14]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574)
[14] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574)
Update re: PF decision HTMl5 @hidden plus aria-hidden='false'
JS: Mostly for Cynthia's benefit.
... We discussed the relationship between aria-hidden and HTML5
hidden attributes
JS See bugzilla:
[15]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
[15] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
JS: @hidden should have a weak mapping to aria-hidden=true
... It was decided that there is a weak mapping.
... related outcome is this construct:
<div hidden aria-hidden="false">
JS: That means it is not visible, but is exposed at the a11y
API level.
/
CS: People shouldn't be adding things to the a11y API.
... I would call this a bad practice.
... It's valid HTML, but is open to discussion.
JS: Does Microsoft support this?
CS: Because it works in IE doesn't mean we think it is a good
technique.
... This is an author error.
[16]http://www.html5accessibility /tests/hidden2013.html
[16] http://www.html5accessibility/
CS: I would caution authors against doing that.
... Unless there is a really good reason to do that.
JS: It functions the same way as offscreen content: not seen,
but spoken by a screen reader.
CS: I think that offscreen is a bad idea as well.
... It causes problem in the text only version.
... Also, the main stream tester doesn't see it and it isn't
tested.
BG: In general I agree that offscreen text is a bad idea, but
sometimes it is very helpful.
... A aria table with editable grid cells, sometimes a string.
<cyns> It causes the same problem as the old 'text only' pages.
Adding a separate UI for screen-readers that is not visible to
mainstream developers and testers runs the risk of that UI not
being kept up to date, tested regularly. Also for it to break
in production without anyone noticing
BG: the only way to communicate to an SR user in a cross
platform way was to use offscreen text.
<cyns> That's true of both offscreen and aria-hidden
BG: Don't the html5 hidden and aria-hidden=false cancel each
other.
<cyns> It should be a last resort technique, but many
developers go to it too quickly.
JS: So, the hidden attribute means it's not rendered on screen
and not seen, but the aria-hidden=false means it is nonethelss
exposed to the a11y API.
... I think this changes the meaning of aria-hidden to
something like "expose/don't expose" at a11y api level.
<cyns> Issue 2: <div hidden aria-hidden=false
style='display:none'> each of these methods of hiding things
from screen readers is fine on its own, and I'm ok with all of
them existing. Using more than one on the same element is
likely to introduce bugs, and authors should be cautioned
against doing so.
JS: the original meaning had something about "perceivable" in
it.
CS: the original specification of hidden was that it was
display:none.
JS: But mozilla requested a fuller specification of this
technique so they can think about it, and respond.
CS: I would like to see the same in order to respond.
DB: I'm still with Matt with the idea of getting a new
attribute for this kind of thing.
JS: agreed that there is a weak mapping. There never was a
strong mapping.
CS: I'm fine with that. I'm not sure about the implications.
DB: I agree. For best practices, this should be a fallback.
ACTION-1320: Consider implementing above using "offscreen" in AAPI.
action-1320?
<trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider
mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of
aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2013-12-23
-- OPEN
<trackbot>
[17]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
[17] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
JS: if we go forward with above construct, how do we map it to
a11y apis.
... I suggested looking into the offscreen properties.
... This is what i found:
[18]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2013OctDec/
0079.html
[18] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2013OctDec/0079.html
JS: MSAA has STATE_SYSTEM_OFFSCREEN
... UIA has IsOffscreen
CS: But, this isn't a back door for screen readers.
... It was for small screens where some of the content was
scrolled offscreen.
DB: what about occlusion.
CS: Not the same thing, but there may be another property for
that.
... I'm not sure "offscreen" was for things inside a window,
but for windows that were offscreen.
DB: If it scrolled offscreen is it "offscreen"?
CS: I'm not sure. I have to look.
BG: What about layering?
DB: It should be similar to the occlusion question.
BG: Like in a carousel where you have a layering effect.
DB: Visible by not legible?
... Includes things like translucent, and overlays.
BG: yes.
DB: It's funny that as time goes on there are more contexts
that don't fit our original states.
JS: I had difficulty with finding an offscreen state for
ATK/AT-SPI
DB: I think that's a combo of STATE_INVISIBLE and
STATE_SHOWING.
JS: I believe Alex said something along those lines.
... It would be clear STATE_INVISIBLE and clear STATE_SHOWING
zakim take up item 2
Agenda for next week's face-to-face:
[19]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
[19] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
JS: <general discussion of agenda for face-to-face>
DB: Is there a call next week?
JS: If we have a call, what will we talk about?
... There is not meeting next week.
s/ \///
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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--
;;;;joseph.
'A: After all, it isn't rocket science.'
'K: Right. It's merely computer science.'
- J. D. Klaun -
Received on Tuesday, 14 January 2014 21:05:42 UTC