Re: HTML 5 Accessibility Mappings

Hi Rich,

Gecko's exposure of the tag as an object attribute predates ARIA so I'm 
not sure can remove it. I don't understand "for all HTML elements that 
don't have a pre-defined ARIA semantic we simply pass the role value as 
the tag name".
Who is "we"? (The browser?)
What does passing the role value mean?
Did you mean 'tag name' or 'role attribute value'?

Regarding the AT and author error, it is up to them whether they want to 
correct or not; gecko provides the info.

If you are proposing AT look at the IA2 role object attribute and ignore 
the MSAA role, and if AT agree to this, I would support making changes 
to gecko to use the role object attribute as more than just the raw 
author supplied role attribute value, in a way I think you are describing.

Cheers,
D

On 28/01/11 1:42 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> David,
>
> The point being that today you need an ARIA role to be able to apply 
> aria attributes. Yet, HTML 5 defines default ARIA semantics for many 
> of the elements removing the need for the author to define an aria 
> role to apply the aria attributes that are applicable to that role. If 
> the author overrides the role using role="foo" then that replaces the 
> role. So there is no reason for the author to expose roles separately 
> if for all HTML elements that don't have a pre-defined ARIA semantic 
> we simply pass the role value as the tag name.
>
> I don't see the value for providing the DOM element tag name and the 
> role attribute. Perhaps I am missing something. Are you asking the AT 
> to correct an author error?
>
> What I am proposing would actually reduce the number of object 
> attributes as you don't need to pass the tag name and the role - just 
> the role.
>
> Rich
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> CTO Accessibility Software Group
>
>
>
> From: David Bolter <david.bolter@gmail.com>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, wai-xtech@w3.org
> Date: 01/25/2011 03:12 PM
> Subject: Re: HTML 5 Accessibility Mappings
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> Thanks for posting this.
>
> Note gecko exposes a 'tag', 'element-name' pair already so the 
> (corrected) #3 would imply duplicated object attributes. I think I 
> would like to expose the role and the element name separately so that 
> AT can decide on its own workarounds. I'm open for debate on that.
>
> I'm not how "What this does for the author is it allows the author to 
> supply ARIA states and properties to elements that do not have a role 
> supplied but depend on the native ARIA semantics as defined by the 
> HTML 5 specification." is strictly dependent on what we expose via the 
> object attribute. It seems like a separate issue.
>
> Note for number 4, gecko almost always overrides the element->desktop 
> role mapping and trusts the author. We don't really validate the role 
> attribute against the element name. Having both the role and tag 
> object attributes allows the AT to decide what is best. I realize 
> there are pros and cons to this design.
>
> The proposal seems to be heading towards using object attributes as 
> the new defacto API (why bother with our existing enumerated MSAA/IA2 
> roles) for browsers. I like the idea of having a more flexible 
> extensible API. Overall I have had push back from devs like Jamie 
> (NVDA) about overusing the object attributes, so I'm interested to 
> hear his feedback on this thread.
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
> On 25/01/11 3:45 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> Yes Steve. Thank you for the correction.
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> CTO Accessibility Software Group
>
> Inactive hide details for Steve Faulkner ---01/25/2011 10:50:13 
> AM---Hi Rich, you wrote:Steve Faulkner ---01/25/2011 10:50:13 AM---Hi 
> Rich, you wrote:
>
> From: Steve Faulkner _<faulkner.steve@gmail.com>_ 
> <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: _wai-xtech@w3.org_ <mailto:wai-xtech@w3.org>, 
> _david.bolter@gmail.com_ <mailto:david.bolter@gmail.com>
> Date: 01/25/2011 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: HTML 5 Accessibility Mappings
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> you wrote:
>
> 3. For HTML elements that have default ARIA role semantic we pass the 
> HTML element name as the role in the name value pair passed in the 
> object attributes sent to the AT
>
> shouldn't this be?
>
> "For HTML elements that have NO default ARIA role semantic..."
>
> regards
> stevef
>
> On 25 January 2011 16:40, Richard Schwerdtfeger <_schwer@us.ibm.com_ 
> <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>> wrote:
> In HTML 5 we introduce the concept of native host language semantics 
> in terms of ARIA roles for all HTML elements. I would like to propose 
> the following
>
> 1. All HTML elements should provide a role attribute in the 
> corresponding accessible object through the object attributes (such as 
> in IAccessible2)
> 2. For HTML elements that have an ARIA equivalent role that role 
> should be passed as the role name/value pair in the object attributes 
> unless the author overrides the default elements role in the object 
> attribute
> 3. For HTML elements that have default ARIA role semantic we pass the 
> HTML element name as the role in the name value pair passed in the 
> object attributes sent to the AT
> 4. For HTML elements with an allowable ARIA role attribute that is 
> provided by the author we pass that role as the role attribute in the 
> object attributes
>
> What this does for the author is it allows the author to supply ARIA 
> states and properties to elements that do not have a role supplied but 
> depend on the native ARIA semantics as defined by the HTML 5 
> specification.
>
> A case in point:
>
> <table tabindex="0" role="grid" aria-activedescendant="idx">
> <tr>
> <th>vegetables</th><th>fruits</th> ...
> </tr>
> <td id="idx" role="gridcell">broccoli</td><td 
> role="gridcell>apple</td> ...
> </tr>
> </table>
>
>
> TR has a native host language ARIA semantic of "row" but no role is 
> needed.
> <TH> defeaults to columnheader and so on.
>
> Feedback?
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> CTO Accessibility Software Group
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG_
>
> __www.paciellogroup.com_ <http://www.paciellogroup.com/>| 
> _www.HTML5accessibility.com_ <http://www.html5accessibility.com/>| 
> _www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner_ <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner>
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - 
> _dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/_ 
> <http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/>
> Web Accessibility Toolbar - 
> _www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html _ 
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>