RE: HTML Caucus: Canvas A11y, 7 August Draft Minutes

I also attended via IRC for a portion (listed as "Tim")
Thanks and best wishes
Tim Boland NIST

-----Original Message-----
From: wai-xtech-request@w3.org [mailto:wai-xtech-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:27 AM
To: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats; WAI XTech
Subject: HTML Caucus: Canvas A11y, 7 August Draft Minutes

Minutes from today's HTML Caucus teleconference on Canvas Accessibility
are available as text below and as html at:
http://www.w3.org/2009/08/07-pf-minutes.html

NOTE: Our next teleconference on Canvas Accessibility is scheduled for
Friday 21 August. Please monitor your mailbox close to that day for a
meeting announcement and expect that the time of this meeting MIGHT
CHANGE.

   W3C

                                                           - DRAFT -

                                       Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
                                                          07 Aug 2009

   See also: IRC log

Attendees

   Present
          Stevef, +49.699.435.aaaa, kliehm, Cooper, Janina, jcraig, Cynthia_Shelly, Gez, chaals

   Regrets
   Chair
          SV_MEETING_CHAIR

   Scribe
          Stevef

Contents

     * Topics
     * Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



   <trackbot> Date: 07 August 2009

   <scribe> scribe:Stevef

   janina: how do we want to organise moving forward on canvas?

   chaals: best guess creating a shadow tree in the dom, build relevant pieces of canvas

   janina: can we agree that aria is going to be part of html5 and we can count on it for canvas?
   ... canvas work will be predicated on aria will be incorporated, put a stake in the sand

   kliehm: lack of msaa support for new elements in html, AT see nothing
   ... testing for support needed, maybe steve can test?
   ... developers working with canvas have an idea of an object, but can't be done yet, just a bit map
   ... google using canvas rather than svg, because its faster, chaals said their is already a dom tree, but have to
   recerate it

   q

   <cyns> +1

   kliehm: need to map objects painted on canvas

   stevef: the current fallback method breaks down when any interaction and compexity is added to canvas

   jcraig: agree complexity gets out of hand, biggest problem now is theoretical, there are no examples
   ... no good way to get shadow dom exposed
   ... better to let browser vendors work on providing access to shadow DOM and attempt to fix the potential focus
   management issues. otherwise, we may end up with a theoretical spec that isn't actually useful.

   <jcraig> scribe: stevef

   <kliehm> agreed

   <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say that the browser would do what it could, but we need to recognise taht in general it
   won't be good enough

   cyns: 1 all browser vendors on this call

   jcraig: using existing implementaions better than creating new pseudo-object model

   <jcraig> jcraig: also, future js libs might abstract some of the potential onus on the developer.

   cyns: noticded table API in HTML5, and wondered whether similar approach for cnavas may be useful/

   jcraig: at the time you are drawing it javascript knows what it is, but dispaears once destroyed. nothing hangs around
   other than image data.

   <chaals> CS: If there is a set of objects being built in creating a canvas, then that could be a place to hang an
   accessibility API.

   <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say timelines are important... which isn't necessarily in our favour

   chaals: no objects in canvas, running with what we already have is better, inventing something new will take too long
   ... if we get libraries being built that facilitate accessibility, that will be good,the technology is poor because you
   have to doo a lot of the work yourself
   ... svg is sorta OK, but still problematic
   ... something we can do to help authors build an object tree, will help, but speed is an issue and developers vendors
   don't want to reduce canvas speed
   ... so we should go with ARIA and expect that ARIA 2.0 will provide more complete enhancements that canvas needs

   <jcraig> Stevef: when I was looking into canvas, i thought about the similarity of image map

   <chaals> steve: When looking into it, thinking of the similarity between an image map and working with a canvas.

   <jcraig> Stevef: certain areas are interactive.

   <chaals> ... you will have some basic elements that you can add roles and states to.

   <kliehm> ach me

   kliehm: enabling auto generation of text in a canvas, and need some structruers that cannot be mapped to ARIA or html

   cyns: accessibility APIs are not new, lots of people who have worked on API's, so its not new territory
   ... v2 of ARIA, and it should have an API, and co developing it with html should be a reasonable thing to do

   <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say "duh", yes, that will provide some simple ones

   <kliehm> we need to markup the shadow dom for some examples and see common elements like text, or perhaps things that
   cannot be represented by HTML and ARIA. No need to map it automatically now, just make an inventory of use cases.

   chaals: we need an ARIA 2.0, that will help us make things easier, putting an image map on canvas will make things
   easier for simple things

   <cyns> also alt and other WCAG 1.1.1 techniques covers many use cases

   jcraig: vendors concerned about new web technologies, image map idea is an interesting idea since aria semantics could
   be tacked on to the image image dom elements

   <cyns> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AddedElementCanvas#head-c43887ef27c016a20e53d16718ab16a398b6899d

   janina: next steps for meeting, cllect a set of examples to further refine approach, its already in wiki page

   jcraig: if browser has canvas it will not render anything inside cnavas

   cyns: will speak to direct draw people at microsft

   <chaals> stevef: not talking of using image map as fallbback

   <jcraig> s/anything inside cnavas/anything inside cnavas to the accessibility api. we also need to think about how that
   should/could work

   <chaals> ... using it as an idea of something tha culd be built in to canvas to handle focus management and provide a
   basic structure to hang ARIA from.

   <Zakim> Stevef, you wanted to say i was not saying to use image maps, but to have something similar implemented in
   canvas

   <chaals> ... if developers are creating interactions mouse-based, an easy win would be to create a form of focus that
   is natively accesible

   <chaals> ... image map was an analogy

   cyns: no approaches are mutually exclusive
   ... we can do all of these things, but need easy API as end goal

   <richardschwerdtfe> what is the call in for this?

   <janina> We're about to close!

   <cyns> +1 to focus feature in canvas API.

   <richardschwerdtfe> I was told the time was to start at 10 cst at the last call

   <janina> edt

   <richardschwerdtfe> it won't let me in

   chaals: image map should not be an analogy, because image maps work now and can resolve some issues

   <janina> probably because we're past the hour, and zakim was scheduled for 60 minutes

   <richardschwerdtfe> this stinks

   <janina> we missed you

   <richardschwerdtfe> I was told the meeting was at 11pm est at yesterday's pf call

   chaals: it is a technique that works out of the box today

   <richardschwerdtfe> I can't get it

   cyns: alt on area is gone?

   <richardschwerdtfe> so, I saw a comment on canvas

   <richardschwerdtfe> what was discussed?

   <janina> we'll have pretty good minutes in about 5

   chaals: i siad there is a change in the model of image maps that I think would be bad for this

   <chaals> [I will not be available next week]

   <richardschwerdtfe> what is the object model we would be staying with?

   <richardschwerdtfe> there is no object model in canvas and one is needed

   <richardschwerdtfe> putting an image map on canvas is a punt

   <chaals> rich, the plan is to go with building a model based on aria (because we know it alrready, and we expect to
   have to make ARIA 2 in any case with stuff that is currently missing), with HTML image maps able to handle some simpler
   cases...

   <chaals> well, it is a solution for some of the things we want, and it will work out of the bo.

   <richardschwerdtfe> aria 2 is a punt

   <chaals> we agree that there needs to be an object model...

   <kliehm> rich, also we'll look at the Wiki examples to come up with use cases how the fallback DOM of those would look
   like.

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]

--

Janina Sajka,   Phone:  +1.202.595.7777;
                sip:janina@CapitalAccessibility.Com
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC      http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada
Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com

Chair, Open Accessibility       janina@a11y.org
Linux Foundation                http://a11y.org

Chair, Protocols & Formats
Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)

Received on Friday, 7 August 2009 16:02:09 UTC