- From: John Foliot <foliot@wats.ca>
- Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 13:02:07 -0700
- To: "'Laura Carlson'" <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, "'Michael\(tm\) Smith'" <mike@w3.org>, "'Chris Wilson'" <Chris.Wilson@microsoft.com>, "'Dan Connolly'" <connolly@w3.org>, "'Ian Hickson'" <ian@hixie.ch>
- Cc: <wai-liaison@w3.org>, <public-html@w3.org>, <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Mr. Hickson, Mr. Connolly, Mr. Smith, It has been noted that there may indeed be a procedural shortcoming which this note seeks to address. Should the answer to Ms. Carlson's question, "Is this WHATWG FAQ an official W3C HTML5 working group process/procedure?" be yes, then we may have been remiss in addressing that requirement. Thus, I here-by submit my request to have @longdesc re-instated into the HTML 5 draft, based upon the published criteria at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_t o_the_spec.3F Is there a process for adding new features to the spec? The process is rather informal, but basically boils down to this: 1. Research the use cases and requirements by discussing the issue with authors and implementors. a) Recap of discussion on the French-language ‘Accessiweb’ mailing list by Catherine Roy (2007-09-18): http://www.catherine-roy.net/html5_feedback.html#longdesc “So, essentially, the users wished, until something really better and well supported comes along, that longdesc stay.” “One user responded to this that while the idea of associating the long description more closely to the image seemed attractive at first, it would mean getting that information every time, which could be a pain for pages visited often, especially if these pages had several images, so he preferred longdesc as this way, he still had a choice to access it or not.” b) Creation of HTML Issue Tracker entry: “Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images” by Charles McCathieNevile (2008-02-05) State: RAISED http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30 “So while some things (especially while they were not well supported) have resulted in abuse, I don't think it follows that we should therefore assume there is no baby in the bath, and just tip it all out - especially, if the actual cost of the abuse is low, and in the longdesc case I claim that the real cost of abuse compared to the benefit of good use is vanishingly small even when most usage is incorrect.” (Charles McCathieNevile / Opera Software) [on introducing a new method to “replace” @longdesc] “IMHO, the reason not to do this is twofold. One is that you have a new element that won't be recognised by existing authoring tools, user agents, assistive technologies, educational material, etc - so you slow down quite considerably getting back to the small but important gains longdesc has given. In addition, this is replicating what longdesc does, but a magical parent-child relationship seems harder to deal with than an attribute that is a pointer. For instance, if I had a full description page (rich media, not just a few lines of text) describing my drawing of Guerníka, but didn't want to put that content in the same container element as the image, what would I do in the proposed model? In the existing longdesc, I put it somewhere else and add a pointer - people who want it get it, the rest are free to ignore it and see my drawing in its original visual framing as god and nature intended.” (Charles McCathieNevile / Opera Software) c) Creation of ESW Wiki entry: “HTML 5 Issue: Image Equivalent Content” http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention Requirement: In situations where images are not available to the user (because of disability, choice, or UA limitation) there is a need for a mechanism that presents equivalent content to the user, either as an alternative to the image or in a side-by-side exposition. Equivalent content is not, nor should it be, and either/or proposition, and its method of exposition should be subject to user control, as some user groups may need both the image and its detailed description in order to make sense of the image or — in the case of a user with an extremely small viewport — to follow the image's flow. Status: Unresolved d) Numerous discussion threads on W3C mailing lists, WHAT WG list and others: (a few examples from the WHAT WG archives follow) “I've spoken to a person who is blind about HTML5 and accessibility. I thought I'd send some of his thoughts to the list. ...He says that HTML5 shouldn't drop the longdesc attribute, because it is useful for people using screen readers.” http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-June/006669.html “Perhaps a better method would be using the longdesc attribute to associate a caption with an image.” http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-June/006840.html Conclusion: Research and Discussion is ongoing and feedback is forthcoming 2. Come up with a clear description of the problem that needs to be solved. “In situations where images are not available to the user (because of disability, choice, or UA limitation) there is a need for a mechanism that presents equivalent content to the user, either as an alternative to the image or in a side-by-side exposition. Equivalent content is not, nor should it be, and either/or proposition, and its method of exposition should be subject to user control, as some user groups may need both the image and its detailed description in order to make sense of the image or — in the case of a user with an extremely small viewport — to follow the image's flow.” http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention “HTML 4 includes a longdesc attribute for images, designed to allow authors to provide extended textual alternatives to image content for users without access to the image. It is unclear what the relative balance of merits and problems with this approach is and hence whether it should be included in HTML 5.” http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30 “Need: Complex images require robust textual equivalents to ensure that they can be perceived by users who cannot visualize a graphic. Users in this user-group are generally the visually impaired, but also included users of text only terminals, or users who have disabled images (for whatever reason). SEO benefits can also be obtained through better descriptions of images. Need: Due to some (visual) design demands, links to longer tracks of text that provide robust descriptions often need to be unobtrusive, yet easily discoverable. While using scripting or CSS techniques may provide partial solutions, we cannot always rely on these solutions to be supported by end-users/user-agents. (the phrase "progressive enhancement" comes to mind) Need: A direct, programmatic link between the visual asset and the description must exist (DOM), so that accessibility APIs can interact with this link (see discoverable above). This is essentially the same problem that was faced with @alt, except that in this case, the volume of information that is contained in the alternative description is significantly more extensive than the intent of the information supplied by @alt Statement of Fact: To date, the best solution proposed to address these needs is @longdesc. Currently however, User-agent support for this attribute (with rare exception) has been poor to non-existent, an acknowledged problem. Because of this poor support, many developers simply do not avail themselves to the attribute, or mis-use it due to poor education surround usage of the attribute." http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Sep/0097.html 3. Discuss your proposal with authors and implementors. Read the responses. Listen to the feedback. Consider whether your ideas are good solutions to the use cases and requirements put forward. Discussions here should be done in public, e.g. on an archived public mailing list or documented in blogs. See above. Public discussion is ongoing and feedback is forthcoming. 4. Get implementors to commit to implementing the feature. If you can't get several implementors to implement the feature, then get at least one user agent to implement it experimentally. Experimental implementations should be publicly available. "The alt attribute is no longer displayed as the image tooltip when the browser is running in IE8 mode. The target of the longDesc attribute is now used as the tooltip if present; otherwise, the title is displayed. The alt attribute is still used as the Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA) name. If this attribute is not present, the title attribute is used instead." http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms534132(VS.85).aspx "iCab [provides access to @longdesc] directly through the contextual menu's Image-Description(which opens the @longdesc URL in a new window). In Gecko-based browsers you need to, through the contextual menu, open the image's "Properties" window, which lists the @longdesc URL as a "Description". In the current Firefox the URL is just text, but I'm told that in Netscape 6 and 7 it is a (clickable) hyperlink." http://tinyurl.com/6ryq4u - lack of native support for @longdesc in WebKit is considered and tracked as a bug: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10448 - lack of support in Opera has been called a bug as well: http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/Opera9Bugs/ - evidence of individual developers trying to fix or improve support of @longdesc (band-aids): * Longdesc Linker for Internet Explorer 6: http://www.hackcraft.net/longdesclink/ * Firefox Longdesc Extension: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/273 * Longdesc Acid Test: http://www.malform.no/acidlongdesctest/ 5. Bring the experimental implementations to the attention of the spec's editor. See above, and by way of this note, specifically brought to Mr. Hickson's attention. As he has indicated that to date this has not happened (below), and I wish to rectify this problem as quickly as possible. On 9/7/08, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch> wrote: > I hate to throw fuel on the fire here, but as far as longdesc="" is > concerned, the reason it isn't in HTML5 is that there has never been > any feedback sent that described a problem for which longdesc="" was > even remotely considered as a solution. > > As is described here: > > http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_feat > ures_to_the_spec.3F > > ...and as has been previously described on this list, the way that > any feature gets added is by first establishing a problem to solve, > and then coming up with the best solutions to address the problem. > To get on my radar, there has to be an actual problem we are trying > to solve that isn't already solved in some better way. This has > never happened for any problem where longdesc="" (or things like it) > were a candidate solution. ************* I believe that the above shows that there is indeed a specific need for, and as yet no other solution that delivers, the specific functionality that @longdesc provides. Further, emergent work is showing that implementors are currently working on improving support for @longdesc today, and as such this attribute should be reinstated into the HTML 5 specification. Sincerely, John Foliot
Received on Sunday, 7 September 2008 20:03:01 UTC