Re: Need to discuss: normative spec for exposing ARIA via APIs

Right. My involvement will just be much deeper regarding APIs I'm actually 
involved with implementing.
So I'll help a little with organizing the information and asking 
questions, but that's not the kind of commitment we need to get those 
done.

Apple and Microsoft will need to lead on how HTML and ARIA are exposed to 
their APIs, otherwise those efforts won't be very fruitful.

- Aaron



From:
David Bolter <david.bolter@utoronto.ca>
To:
Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS
Cc:
Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Alfred.S.Gilman@ieee.org, 
alice.liu@apple.com, annevk@opera.com, Beth Dakin <bdakin@apple.com>, 
Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>, hsivonen@iki.fi, James Craig 
<jcraig@apple.com>, Jonas Klink <klink@google.com>, 
marcsil@windows.microsoft.com, simonp@opera.com, Tony Ross 
<tross@microsoft.com>, "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>, 
wai-xtech-request@w3.org
Date:
10/30/2008 03:07 AM
Subject:
Re: Need to discuss: normative spec for exposing ARIA via APIs



I'd like to help with #5, but I think it will probably need primary
involvement from someone inside Apple, and Aaron I can't see you not be
involved to some degree in all 5...

Where are these specs sitting?  Do we want to use codetalks.org?

cheers,
David

Aaron M Leventhal wrote:
>         This part wasn't logged ... commitments to work on the various 
> specs proposed:
> 
> 1. HTML+ARIA to DOM API  : commitment by Aaron Leventhal (IBM) and Jonas 

> Klink (Google)
> 2. HTML DOM (with ARIA) to MSAA/IA2   : commitment by Aaron Leventhal 
> (IBM) and Jonas Klink (Google)
> 3. HTML DOM (with ARIA) to ATK/ATSPI     : commitment by Aaron Leventhal 

> (IBM) and Jonas Klink (Google)
> 4. HTML DOM (with ARIA) to MSAA/UIA Express   : no commitments yet
> 5. HTML DOM (with ARIA) to Mac OSXA    : no commitments yet
>
> Any commitments to work on these specs from some other ARIA 
implementors?
>
> - Aaron
>
>
>
> From:
> Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> To:
> Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>, "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
> Cc:
> Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS, Alfred.S.Gilman@ieee.org, 
> alice.liu@apple.com, annevk@opera.com, Beth Dakin <bdakin@apple.com>, 
> hsivonen@iki.fi, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>, Jonas Klink 
> <klink@google.com>, marcsil@windows.microsoft.com, simonp@opera.com, 
Tony 
> Ross <tross@microsoft.com>
> Date:
> 10/29/2008 11:04 PM
> Subject:
> Re: Need to discuss: normative spec for exposing ARIA via APIs
>
>
>
> Michael raises an important point. I am replying to Michael and xtech to 

> get the discussion logged and we continue the discussion.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
>
> Michael Cooper ---10/29/2008 04:06:12 PM---I'm getting a little 
concerned 
> that ideas are maturing in this discussion, but not all the right people 

> are necessarily at the
>
> Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org> 
> 10/29/2008 04:05 PM
>
>
>
> To
>
> Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
>
> cc
>
> Jonas Klink <klink@google.com>, Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS, 
> Alfred.S.Gilman@ieee.org, alice.liu@apple.com, annevk@opera.com, Beth 
> Dakin <bdakin@apple.com>, hsivonen@iki.fi, James Craig 
<jcraig@apple.com>, 
> marcsil@windows.microsoft.com, simonp@opera.com, Tony Ross 
> <tross@microsoft.com>
>
> Subject
>
> Re: Need to discuss: normative spec for exposing ARIA via APIs
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm getting a little concerned that ideas are maturing in this 
discussion, 
> but not all the right people are necessarily at the table yet. This 
thread 
> isn't even taking place on an archived list. As I mentioned in an 
earlier 
> reply, there was some agreement on directions related to this documented 

> at http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-role-minutes.html, and all the people 
> involved in that discussion would want to participate in this one as 
well.
>
> Could I ask that this discussion be moved to the wai-xtech@w3.org list? 
> We'll need a recap of what's been discussed so far. If you prefix your 
> subject line with "[Role]" it will help establish continuity with the 
> discussion that took place in the HTML breakout session last week. 
Anybody 
> on the cc list to this message who is not on the xtech distribution, 
> please let me know and I'll add you.
>
> Again, I'm not able to offer substantive help with this process until 
next 
> week. But if someone could look after the above I think it will help us 
to 
> be in a better place for moving forward.
>
> Michael
>
> Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
> That is great. This is looking like a normative spec which defines:
>
> HTML+ARIA to DOM API
> HTML DOM (with ARIA) to MSAA/IA2
> HTML DOM (with ARIA) to ATK/ATSPI
> HTML DOM (with ARIA) to MSAA/UIA Express
> HTML DOM (with ARIA) to Mac OSXA
>
> This would include how events are generated on each platform. 
>
> Unless anyone here believes one of these is not ready. If not, we could 
do 
> a second revision of the spec. when they are. 
>
> I would not try to tackle SVG as we have no proven solution. The SVG 
> working group may be upset but we could say that this can be done later.
>
> Michael, how many platforms do we actually need to support in the first 
> implementation guide? I don't want to try and boil an ocean if someone 
is 
> not ready.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
>
> "Jonas Klink" ---10/29/2008 12:34:07 PM---I personally (and Google) see 
no 
> reason why we should not be able to move forward with describing the 
> deliverables at this poin
> "Jonas Klink" <klink@google.com> 
> 10/29/2008 12:33 PM
>
>
>
> To
>
> "Michael Cooper" <cooper@w3.org>
>
> cc
>
> Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS, Alfred.S.Gilman@ieee.org, 
> marcsil@windows.microsoft.com, Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, 
> simonp@opera.com, hsivonen@iki.fi, "Beth Dakin" <bdakin@apple.com>, 
> alice.liu@apple.com, "James Craig" <jcraig@apple.com>, annevk@opera.com, 

> "Tony Ross" <tross@microsoft.com>
>
> Subject
>
> Re: Need to discuss: normative spec for exposing ARIA via APIs
>
>
>
>
>
> I personally (and Google) see no reason why we should not be able to 
move 
> forward with describing the deliverables at this point. Even though we 
are 
> not implementation-wise quite there yet, I do think we have a clear 
> picture of where this is heading.
>
> - Jonas
>
> On 10/28/08, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org> wrote: 
> FYI the HTML WG had a breakout session on a topic very much the same as 
> this. While we didn't take careful notes, what we have is at 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-role-minutes.html.
>
> My feeling coming out of that session was that we had some additional 
> ideas for next directions. The issue of people who can represent the 
> various accessibility APIs remains.
>
> My own involvement in this process is restricted for this week, due to 
> conflicting responsibilities. I plan to come back to this next week and 
> hopefully offer substantive support from there on.
>
> Michael
>
>
> Aaron M Leventhal wrote: 
>
> What's the next step to bring this into the W3C? 
>
> Apple, Opera and Google have indicated they are not far enough along in 
> implementation to make deep contributions to such a spec. As I see it, 
> that leaves Microsoft and Mozilla as the two main drivers. 
>
> Unfortunately, Microsoft and Mozilla use different APIs to extend beyond 

> MSAA. By itself is only enough to support ARIA widgets. Mozilla uses 
> IAccessible2, and Microsoft uses UIA Express (correct?) to get beyond 
> these limitations. We can standardize on things like object and text 
> attributes used to expose ARIA properties, but there will be some places 

> where API specifics will differ. 
>
> On Linux, I'm not sure if there is a browser vendor outside of Mozilla 
> very focused on supporting ARIA via ATK/AT-SPI. However, it is at least 
> very close to IAccessible2. 
>
> And, if we want to have anything meaningful for how ARIA is exposed on a 

> Mac, we will need input from Apple, Google Opera, who have expressed 
that 
> there is no one full time working on ARIA support, and that it is not 
> clear when they'll be ready to solidly contribute this information. 
>
> Here's a chart that describes my understanding of where each vendor is 
> focusing in efforts to expose ARIA: 
> Mozilla: MSAA+IA2, ATK, OS X Accessibility Protocol 
> Microsoft: MSAA + UIA Express 
> Google/Apple/WebKit: OS X Accessibility Protocol, MSAA(+IA2?), ATK? 
> Opera: OS X Accessibility Protocol, MSAA(+IA2?), ATK? 
>
> I'm sure we can work out a lot of issues as we go through the doc, but 
I'm 
> not sure what kind of commitment can be made. In the current environment 

> it doesn't look like we can do a satisfactory job of describing the 
> mapping to all APIs. 
>
> Can we describe the deliverables so that we can be successful even where 

> API specifics aren't ready? 
> Or do the individual API specifics need to be both normative and 
complete 
> for every platform? I don't see why they do. 
>
> - Aaron 
>
>