Re: Need to discuss: normative spec for exposing ARIA via APIs

I'd like to help with #5, but I think it will probably need primary
involvement from someone inside Apple, and Aaron I can't see you not be
involved to some degree in all 5...

Where are these specs sitting?  Do we want to use codetalks.org?

cheers,
David

Aaron M Leventhal wrote:
>         This part wasn't logged ... commitments to work on the various 
> specs proposed:
>  
> 1. HTML+ARIA to DOM API  : commitment by Aaron Leventhal (IBM) and Jonas 
> Klink (Google)
> 2. HTML DOM (with ARIA) to MSAA/IA2   : commitment by Aaron Leventhal 
> (IBM) and Jonas Klink (Google)
> 3. HTML DOM (with ARIA) to ATK/ATSPI     : commitment by Aaron Leventhal 
> (IBM) and Jonas Klink (Google)
> 4. HTML DOM (with ARIA) to MSAA/UIA Express   : no commitments yet
> 5. HTML DOM (with ARIA) to Mac OSXA    : no commitments yet
>
> Any commitments to work on these specs from some other ARIA implementors?
>
> - Aaron
>
>
>
> From:
> Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> To:
> Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>, "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
> Cc:
> Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS, Alfred.S.Gilman@ieee.org, 
> alice.liu@apple.com, annevk@opera.com, Beth Dakin <bdakin@apple.com>, 
> hsivonen@iki.fi, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>, Jonas Klink 
> <klink@google.com>, marcsil@windows.microsoft.com, simonp@opera.com, Tony 
> Ross <tross@microsoft.com>
> Date:
> 10/29/2008 11:04 PM
> Subject:
> Re: Need to discuss: normative spec for exposing ARIA via APIs
>
>
>
> Michael raises an important point. I am replying to Michael and xtech to 
> get the discussion logged and we continue the discussion.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
>
> Michael Cooper ---10/29/2008 04:06:12 PM---I'm getting a little concerned 
> that ideas are maturing in this discussion, but not all the right people 
> are necessarily at the
>
> Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org> 
> 10/29/2008 04:05 PM
>
>
>
> To
>
> Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
>
> cc
>
> Jonas Klink <klink@google.com>, Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS, 
> Alfred.S.Gilman@ieee.org, alice.liu@apple.com, annevk@opera.com, Beth 
> Dakin <bdakin@apple.com>, hsivonen@iki.fi, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>, 
> marcsil@windows.microsoft.com, simonp@opera.com, Tony Ross 
> <tross@microsoft.com>
>
> Subject
>
> Re: Need to discuss: normative spec for exposing ARIA via APIs
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm getting a little concerned that ideas are maturing in this discussion, 
> but not all the right people are necessarily at the table yet. This thread 
> isn't even taking place on an archived list. As I mentioned in an earlier 
> reply, there was some agreement on directions related to this documented 
> at http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-role-minutes.html, and all the people 
> involved in that discussion would want to participate in this one as well.
>
> Could I ask that this discussion be moved to the wai-xtech@w3.org list? 
> We'll need a recap of what's been discussed so far. If you prefix your 
> subject line with "[Role]" it will help establish continuity with the 
> discussion that took place in the HTML breakout session last week. Anybody 
> on the cc list to this message who is not on the xtech distribution, 
> please let me know and I'll add you.
>
> Again, I'm not able to offer substantive help with this process until next 
> week. But if someone could look after the above I think it will help us to 
> be in a better place for moving forward.
>
> Michael
>
> Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
> That is great. This is looking like a normative spec which defines:
>
> HTML+ARIA to DOM API
> HTML DOM (with ARIA) to MSAA/IA2
> HTML DOM (with ARIA) to ATK/ATSPI
> HTML DOM (with ARIA) to MSAA/UIA Express
> HTML DOM (with ARIA) to Mac OSXA
>
> This would include how events are generated on each platform. 
>
> Unless anyone here believes one of these is not ready. If not, we could do 
> a second revision of the spec. when they are. 
>
> I would not try to tackle SVG as we have no proven solution. The SVG 
> working group may be upset but we could say that this can be done later.
>
> Michael, how many platforms do we actually need to support in the first 
> implementation guide? I don't want to try and boil an ocean if someone is 
> not ready.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
>
> "Jonas Klink" ---10/29/2008 12:34:07 PM---I personally (and Google) see no 
> reason why we should not be able to move forward with describing the 
> deliverables at this poin
> "Jonas Klink" <klink@google.com> 
> 10/29/2008 12:33 PM
>
>
>
> To
>
> "Michael Cooper" <cooper@w3.org>
>
> cc
>
> Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS, Alfred.S.Gilman@ieee.org, 
> marcsil@windows.microsoft.com, Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, 
> simonp@opera.com, hsivonen@iki.fi, "Beth Dakin" <bdakin@apple.com>, 
> alice.liu@apple.com, "James Craig" <jcraig@apple.com>, annevk@opera.com, 
> "Tony Ross" <tross@microsoft.com>
>
> Subject
>
> Re: Need to discuss: normative spec for exposing ARIA via APIs
>
>
>
>
>
> I personally (and Google) see no reason why we should not be able to move 
> forward with describing the deliverables at this point. Even though we are 
> not implementation-wise quite there yet, I do think we have a clear 
> picture of where this is heading.
>
> - Jonas
>
> On 10/28/08, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org> wrote: 
> FYI the HTML WG had a breakout session on a topic very much the same as 
> this. While we didn't take careful notes, what we have is at 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-role-minutes.html.
>
> My feeling coming out of that session was that we had some additional 
> ideas for next directions. The issue of people who can represent the 
> various accessibility APIs remains.
>
> My own involvement in this process is restricted for this week, due to 
> conflicting responsibilities. I plan to come back to this next week and 
> hopefully offer substantive support from there on.
>
> Michael
>
>
> Aaron M Leventhal wrote: 
>
> What's the next step to bring this into the W3C? 
>
> Apple, Opera and Google have indicated they are not far enough along in 
> implementation to make deep contributions to such a spec. As I see it, 
> that leaves Microsoft and Mozilla as the two main drivers. 
>
> Unfortunately, Microsoft and Mozilla use different APIs to extend beyond 
> MSAA. By itself is only enough to support ARIA widgets. Mozilla uses 
> IAccessible2, and Microsoft uses UIA Express (correct?) to get beyond 
> these limitations. We can standardize on things like object and text 
> attributes used to expose ARIA properties, but there will be some places 
> where API specifics will differ. 
>
> On Linux, I'm not sure if there is a browser vendor outside of Mozilla 
> very focused on supporting ARIA via ATK/AT-SPI. However, it is at least 
> very close to IAccessible2. 
>
> And, if we want to have anything meaningful for how ARIA is exposed on a 
> Mac, we will need input from Apple, Google Opera, who have expressed that 
> there is no one full time working on ARIA support, and that it is not 
> clear when they'll be ready to solidly contribute this information. 
>
> Here's a chart that describes my understanding of where each vendor is 
> focusing in efforts to expose ARIA: 
> Mozilla: MSAA+IA2, ATK, OS X Accessibility Protocol 
> Microsoft: MSAA + UIA Express 
> Google/Apple/WebKit: OS X Accessibility Protocol, MSAA(+IA2?), ATK? 
> Opera: OS X Accessibility Protocol, MSAA(+IA2?), ATK? 
>
> I'm sure we can work out a lot of issues as we go through the doc, but I'm 
> not sure what kind of commitment can be made. In the current environment 
> it doesn't look like we can do a satisfactory job of describing the 
> mapping to all APIs. 
>
> Can we describe the deliverables so that we can be successful even where 
> API specifics aren't ready? 
> Or do the individual API specifics need to be both normative and complete 
> for every platform? I don't see why they do. 
>
> - Aaron 
>
>

Received on Thursday, 30 October 2008 02:08:19 UTC