RE: [DHTML Style Guide] Tablist: why alt+del?

Well said! 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wai-xtech-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:wai-xtech-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Schnabel, Stefan
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:52 AM
> To: Victor Tsaran; James Craig; Chris Blouch
> Cc: David Bolter; Joseph Scheuhammer; wai-xtech@w3.org; earl johnson
> Subject: RE: [DHTML Style Guide] Tablist: why alt+del?
> 
> 
> Any attempts to "make-it-as-simple-as-possible" are justified 
> and welcome as long as the overall harmonization idea is not 
> forgotten.
> Also, the individual platforms and OS (PC, Mac etc.) have 
> evolved differently and Mac users may simply expect different 
> keystrokes sometimes on a web page to use elements they know 
> from their OS ..
> 
> As far as I have understood, ARIA is NOT about keyboard 
> navigation. Its anticipations are that support for it is 
> simply *there* built into the UA's for known roles. ARIA just 
> needs that like a ship the water.
> 
> As ARIA is a Band Aid for HTML5 with respect to roles, the 
> AOL style guide is a glass bridge with respect to navigation 
> for us JavaScript coders until this support is available in 
> the UA's, and nobody knows when it will be the case.
> 
> I believe when there is no consensus about common keyboard 
> navigation AT will (and have to) find ways to support KB 
> navigation for ARIA in the Rambo way and this is worse 
> because there will be diversification which is a good thing 
> for a nation but not for Web UI Elements.
> 
> Keyboard Usage Standardization for Web UI Elements is 
> mandatory and I wonder why this attempt has to be done by 
> some committed people from industry. And yes. I know the 
> reasons why. But sometimes there is no comfort in the truth.
> 
> - Stefan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wai-xtech-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:wai-xtech-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Victor Tsaran
> Sent: Mittwoch, 19. November 2008 21:34
> To: James Craig; Chris Blouch
> Cc: David Bolter; Joseph Scheuhammer; wai-xtech@w3.org; earl johnson
> Subject: RE: [DHTML Style Guide] Tablist: why alt+del?
> 
> 
> Good points. ARIA will not go forward unless it is practical 
> and works.
> Talk to anyone in the industry who has tried to incorporate 
> into a mainstream product and you'll know what I mean.
> Victor
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wai-xtech-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:wai-xtech-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of James Craig
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 12:23 PM
> To: Chris Blouch
> Cc: David Bolter; Joseph Scheuhammer; wai-xtech@w3.org; earl johnson
> Subject: Re: [DHTML Style Guide] Tablist: why alt+del?
> 
> 
> Chris Blouch wrote:
> 
> > I spent quite a bit of time trying to implement keyboard shortcuts 
> > that didn't interfere with either the OS, browser or AT and after 
> > doing a lot of testing with XP, Jaws, IE and FF the 
> available list was
> 
> > very very short. I believe one of the ideas going into the 
> DHTML style
> 
> > guide was that ARIA would allow an AT to know that the user 
> had focus 
> > on a widget and get out of the way. Without that it would be nearly 
> > impossible to find a set that works cross-AT, cross- browser and 
> > cross-platform. Do Mac Voiceover users care that control- J jumps 
> > cells with Jaws on Windows? Do Windows users care that 
> voiceover users
> 
> > jump between headers using control+alt+h? I suggest that the set of 
> > available key combinations that are as agnostic as the web sites we 
> > want to implement them on is nearly null. In light of that, a clean 
> > slate approach seems appropriate. Given no constraints on 
> keystrokes 
> > other than trying to give a nod to what is common (familiar) in 
> > existing implementations to lower cognitive load, what 
> would make the 
> > most sense for navigating and controlling widgets?
> 
> For what it's worth, I completely agree with you. The 
> argument I've heard against that is that there needs to be a 
> consistent mechanism for keyboard navigation even if not 
> controlled by AT like a screen reader.
> To that, I replied that the user agent should implement the 
> key commands.
> 
> For example, I can activate the menus or form controls in 
> Safari with or without VoiceOver. The same should be true of 
> all ARIA widgets in that UA and AT control web application 
> widgets in the exact same way as the desktop equivalents. 
> Although I firmly believe this is the right approach, not all 
> browsers currently support DOM mutation events properly, and 
> that feature is required for this approach to be a practical solution.
> 
> At this point, I've started mostly ignoring the DHTML Style 
> Guide as an overly-complex, but nice-to-have stop-gap measure 
> until user agents support all these controls natively. I'm 
> not saying this to make enemies in the DHTML Style Guide 
> Working Group, but that will probably happen anyway. I'd be 
> more on board with the more simple approach Victor
> mentioned: very basic navigational controls, including the 
> keystroke to open a contextual menu that contains all the 
> more-complex methods of navigation and control.
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Received on Thursday, 20 November 2008 14:04:02 UTC