Minutes User Agent Teleconference for 04 2010

http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html

 

- DRAFT -

User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

04 Mar 2010

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc> 

Attendees

Present

+KimPatch, Jallan, Kford, Glowney, Jspellman, Sharper, Mhakkinen

Regrets

Patrick

Chair

Jim_Allan_Kelly_Ford

Scribe

allanj

Contents

*	Topics <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#agenda>  

1.	F2F Recap <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#item01> 
2.	Discuss survey <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#item02>
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/
3.	3.1 <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#item03>
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1
4.	3.1.2 <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#item04>
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2
5.	3.3.2 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq5
<http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#item05> 
6.	3.3.6 <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#item06>
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq6
7.	publish <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#item07>
working draft on Mar 11 (before CSUN)
8.	3.3.7 content <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#item08>
retrieval http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq7

*	Summary <http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
of Action Items

  _____  

<trackbot> Date: 04 March 2010

<scribe> scribe: allanj

F2F Recap

KF: kudos all around. very productive.

Discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/

GL: lazarus extension to firefox, that backsup all items in online forms
incase of crashes.

KF: all F2F work is posted.
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100226/
... thanks to Jeanne!!

3.1 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1

discussion editorial comments and conventions

<scribe> ACTION: KP to copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and
establish conventions [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-319 - Copy edit draft with JS to normalize
document and establish conventions [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-03-11].

<jeanne2> ACTION: Kim to do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for
editorial consistency. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-320 - Do a copy edit pass of the document with
jeanne for editorial consistency. [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-03-11].

GL: add to 3.1.1 the clause we added to 3.1.2: "and, in cases where the
alternative content has different dimensions than the original content, how
the layout/reflow of the document should be handled". Should we?

JS: +1

all: +1

GL: note under related resouces in 3.1.1 should be copied to 3.1.2

<jeanne2> ACTION: JS to edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an
additional sentence. See the survey results
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-321 - Edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase
for an additional sentence. See the survey results
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 [on Jeanne Spellman
- due 2010-03-11].

<jeanne2> RESOLUTION: accept 3.1.1 with Greg and Kim edits

3.1.2 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2

<jeanne2> RESOLUTION: 3.1.2 accepted with minor error correction. See
results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2

<jeanne2> ACTION: Jeanne to update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with
edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-322 - Update document with the proposal for 3.1.2
with edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 [on
Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11].

<scribe> ACTION: JA to add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-323 - Add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for
next week [on Jim Allan - due 2010-03-11].

<jeanne2> ACTION: add 3.3.1 to next agenda for discussion [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - add

<scribe> ACTION: JA to add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-324 - Add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda [on Jim Allan
- due 2010-03-11].

3.3.2 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq5

GL: 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy: For content in a hierarchy (e.g., tree
node, nested frame), the user can view the path of nodes leading from the
root to the content. (Level AA)
... Major: As written this would include all HTML, as it is hierarchical. Is
that the intent? If so, examples should make that explicit. Such a feature
would be very useful, but I don't know if it's yet implemented in a useful
fashion (as opposed to as a complex feature for developers). Note that
outline view would not be enough, because as written this would require
exposing every div...
... element, etc. Or we could modify it to not apply to all source markup.

KF: perhaps, it should be to support languages ability to provide
hierarchary

GL: This is about exposing through the user interface, not in the DOM.

SH: with implementation of lists. Javascript, AJAX creating widgets from
bits of html.

KF: that is a content issue. The author needs to add in ARIA. the UA should
support ARIA.

GL: see the example ... "A media player provides a hierarchical display of
playlists, albums, artists and songs, etc. When the user selects an
individual item, a breadcrumb of the categories is displayed, can be
navigated and is available programatically."
... this is a UA task, not an author task.
... not sure if needed?

JS: should be in GL 2

KF: for well structured content, that reduced visual clutter. would be good
for ld.

JA: this seems to say body, heading 1, paragraph 3 list list item 3

SH: what would we gain by loosing it.

GL: if an item is unclear, then it needs clarification or removal.
... split into 2 issues (content-page, document-set breadcrumbs, list of
songs in media player, etc)

KF: In IE can get a tree view of all nodes in a document.

SH: are we not talking about content presented in a hierarchy, semantics are
explicit.
... if semantics are not explicit in the content, UA could impose a
structure.

<Greg> GL to clarify: split into one SC for structure within a document, and
one for document sets (e.g. breadcrumbs, categorization of media, ec.) The
latter may be compelling, the former may not be.

SH: media player has music in many directories, but appear to the user as
one list.

GL: this overlaps with structured navigation.

KP: a lot of mouse use, overlaps with keyboard. important to give users a
handle to allow them to uncomplicate things.

GL: who wants to champion? expand with intention and examples.

<scribe> ACTION: SH to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH

<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username
(eg. sharper, shayes)

<jeanne2> ACTION: SH to clean up 3.3.2 and send proposals to the list.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH

<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username
(eg. sharper, shayes)

<scribe> ACTION: SHarper to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-325 - Rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples.
[on Simon Harper - due 2010-03-11].

3.3.6 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq6

KF: why is this important to PWD (people with disabilities)

GL: see 3.4.1 This is particularly important for users with some
disabilities, who may not be able to use some forms of content (e.g. images)
or may even need to avoid some forms of content (e.g. animations) and
therefore choose to replace them with alternative content.

JS: then need to know that something was not rendered.

KF: when images don't load, you get a red X and blocks out space for image.

>From UAAG10 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/uaag10.html#tech-conditional-content

KP: if you need alternative content, shouldn't have to see it's not there
before I try to find an alternative

KF: as default, I say give me @alt or give me nothing what should UA render?

KP: red X

SH: what about file name.

KF: that's what screen readers do.

GL: what if UA gives no feedback about any missing content, why should the
UA have to do more specifically for PWD

KF: should make a note that we are removing this SC because it overlaps with
other SC. This SC does nothing to help PWD ...

MH: i am a developer using a screenreader, I mistype url, so an image does
not show. How will I know if the images doesn't show.

KF: screen reader user would never know if an image rendered, because
screenreader gives all kinds of other information.
... is 3.3.6 really needed?

GL: SC elsewhere to show alt content for an item. This is saying show
something when primary resource is not available. this is the same as 3.1.5
... wording overlaps. could reword 3.1.5 to include this case.
... gets complicated.
... if something links to content that is missing, what should happen.

SH: user should know when something is missing.

GL: this SC does not say that. it says UA must show something to a user if
something is missing. (JA missed this)

KF: what is inverse, when no image the UA shows a red x, if no alt then the
screenreader user gets nothing.
... as written this is not clear. Someone champion or put on survey for
deletion.
... any objection to deletion now.

SH: no objection about deletion, what will take its place. need something
that tells user that something is missing.

GL: current wording is ambiguous.

KF: any objections

all: no objections.

<jeanne2> ACTION: jeanne to delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that
3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities,
and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-326 - Delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that
3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities,
and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC.
[on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11].

KF: other issue, when UA indicates errors or missing content (RED X), are
they done accessibly.

GL: present, not present; found, not found attribute not listed in GL2, may
not be in the dom.

JA: if UA puts up 'red x" why not say 'missing image'

kF: but what if missing image has an @alt, 'missing image' would overwrite
the @alt.

publish working draft on Mar 11 (before CSUN)

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: do we want to publish, with proposed items as a trial
basis, or take all face to face text out.

<jeanne2> ACTION: kford to follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-327 - Follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report
back [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-03-11].

GL: better with new stuff

all: +1

<jeanne2> RESOLUTION: To publish UAAG 2.0 as a Working Draft and
Implementing UAAG 2.0 as a First Public Working Draft with the draft
proposals included.

3.3.7 content retrieval
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq7

GL: this about the UI, progress indicators should be accessible.
... why is this here., this should be in GL2 programmatic access.

KF: keep survey open, state comments with 3.3.7

kudos to Knowbility for hosting reception.

KF: Thanks to Jim and TSBVI for hosting the meeting. Well done.

<kford> Jim are you closing it out?

yes

<kford> thanks.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: add 3.3.1 to next agenda for discussion [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: JA to add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: JA to add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that 3.3.6
was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities, and
the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne to update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with
edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an
additional sentence. See the survey results
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: kford to follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Kim to do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for
editorial consistency. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: KP to copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and
establish conventions [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: SH to clean up 3.3.2 and send proposals to the list. [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: SH to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: SHarper to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action10]
 
[End of minutes]