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Re: Checkpoint 7.2

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:03:24 -0400 (EDT)
To: Kitch Barnicle <kab42@columbia.edu>
cc: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9908221756460.20128-100000@tux.w3.org>
I don't think this is about being able to make a selection - that is covered
in the guideline on input-device independence. I think the idea of the
checkpoint is that a user can can access all the content of a given element.

In most cases the strict technical meaning of element content in XML and HTML
is the same as the broader natural languages meaning. There are cases where
this isn't so - for example, the value of the alt attribute can be
understoood to be part of the content of the element in natural language
terms, although it is not in the technical sense.

We want something like ensuring that the user can make all the
information provided for an element which is intended to be human-readable be
rendered. (for example there is not much necessity to render the width of a
frame, but it should be possible to get access to a title.

In addition, there are complex elements like object which can have several
different pieces of renderable information which is intended to be

I hope that someone can come up with some simpler wording which conveys the

Charles McCN

On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Kitch Barnicle wrote:

  Hi Ian,
  All of my comments appear at the top of this message.  Now that I am trying to
  match up the checkpoints with users and technology, I too am a bit confused
  checkpoint 7.2. 
  7.2 For dependent user agents. Ensure that the user has access to the content
  of an element selected by the user.     [Priority 1]
  Is providing "access to the content of an element" different than allowing the
  user to select the content of an element? Is this related to the current
  problem that keyboard users face when they want to select an element (e.g.
  text) with the keyboard. Most, if not all, mainstream user agents only allow
  selection of a portion of a page with a pointing device.  If so, why is this
  only for dependent user agents? Should the checkpoint be something like  
  "Ensure that the user has can select  the content of an element using any
  device."  Can someone select and element and still not have "access" to it?
  At 12:28 PM 8/17/99 -0400, Ian Jacobs wrote:
  >thatch@us.ibm.com wrote:
  >> Current 8/11 checkpoint 7.2 reads:
  >> 7.2 For dependent user agents. Ensure that the user has
  >>       access to the content of an element selected by the user.
  >>       [Priority 1]
  >> I don't understand what this means. 
  >The intention is to allow the user to select content (e.g.,
  >structured by element or text content that may span element
  >boundaries) and have it rendered as speech or braille. 
  >UAs should also allow users to select content and find
  >out contextual information about it (e.g., row/colum
  >coordinates of a table cell).
  >> And didn't find help in the techniques
  >> document. 
  >Alas, the techniques document has been slow to catch
  >up to the guidelines. We are turning our attention to it
  >more actively as we near last call.
  >> Perhaps the problem comes from the phrase "element selected by the
  >> user." With the keyboard? With a mouse?
  >With any supported input device.
  >> Can any element be "selected." 
  >It's not just elements - it can be attribute values. I think
  >that the user should be able to select any rendered text content.
  >I believe that the user should be able to select any non-text
  >content as well, but there are undoubtedly implications to
  >be considered for graphics, etc.
  >> If none
  >> can be selected, is 7.2 vacuously satisfied?
  >Probably, we should clarify that this refers to content
  >rendered natively (i.e., not by a plug-in, etc.). 
  >Please let me know if this clarifies the checkpoint. If
  >not, or if you think there are issues, please let me know.
  > - Ian
  >Ian Jacobs (jacobs@w3.org)  
  >Tel/Fax:                     +1 212 684-1814

--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
Received on Sunday, 22 August 1999 18:03:25 UTC

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