Re: A question about immediate feedback

I'm not sure there is any tension in 2.2.1

It sets a criterion that we shouldn't make something time dependent that is
completely reliant on that time dependency.

There are two ways for something not to be completely reliant on time
dependency 1) the feature/function/information is also available by some
other means 2) the time limit can be extended by the user.

G198 specifies the method of turning off time limits must not itself be
subject to time limits - e.g. a header toggle switch is acceptable.

These guidelines are more than flexible enough to allow toast notifications
whilst ensuring nothing is made inaccessible.

The goal of WCAG is to ensure accessible users can access all the
information and controls on a website, alternative means of providing these
features or information is perfectly acceptable.

On Friday, June 27, 2025, Leighton, Chris <
Christopher.Leighton@team.telstra.com> wrote:
> There is tension in 2.2.1 ‘Understanding’.
>
> This fragment supports the idea that time is important to all-people and
therefore should be supported by not-auto-disappearing content “The intent
of this success criterion is to ensure that users with disabilities are
given adequate time to interact with web content whenever possible”.
>
> Compared to the earlier fragment that reduced the idea to ‘tasks’, ”
Goal: Users have adequate time to complete tasks“.
>
> Is the normative idea of ‘interact’ or ‘task’ in WAI inclusive of
accessing information, or is a task an input or onclick and alike? Those
are not captured in the 2.2 Glossary.
>
> Understanding 2.2.1 in WAI
>
> Here's to version 3.
>
> Regards, Chris
>
>
>
> General
>
> From: Adam Cooper <cooperad@bigpond.com>
> Sent: Friday, 27 June 2025 9:45 AM
> To: 'Steve Green' <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>; 'Mark Magennis' <
Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: A question about immediate feedback
>
>
>
> [External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation – be
cautious, particularly with links and attachments.
>
> Very much agreed, Steve, but, as the benefit statement reads for 4.1.3:
>
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> “The intended beneficiaries are blind and low vision users of assistive
technologies with screen reader capabilities. “
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> So, unless people are using Fusion with the speech enabled, I guess WCAG
isn’t for everyone?
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> Let’s hope that WCAG 3.0 might make popups - regardless of how they’re
implemented – more accessible because there are gaps as it stands in WCAG
2.x as this thread demonstrates clearly.
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> From: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2025 12:11 AM
> To: Mark Magennis <Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: A question about immediate feedback
>
>
>
> This is one of the benefits of putting the messages in a modal dialog. As
long as screen magnifier users have enabled tracking, the message will
automatically move into the viewport when it receives focus. Otherwise, the
user has to hunt for the message, assuming they even know it exists. That’s
pretty difficult, even at relatively low magnification levels.
>
>
>
> Steve
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> From: Mark Magennis <Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>
> Sent: 26 June 2025 14:15
> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: A question about immediate feedback
>
>
>
> Mike,
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> A problem with things that are tucked away to not attract too much
attention is that they are easily missed by some users, particularly users
of screen magnification. So it's good to think about whether it may be
possible to use inline notifications rather than pop-ups.
>
>
>
> Mark
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>
> ________________________________
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> From: Mike Cleary <mike.cleary@grantsolutions.gov>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2025 13:55
> To: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>
> Cc: Mark Magennis <Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org <
w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: A question about immediate feedback
>
>
>
> You don't often get email from mike.cleary@grantsolutions.gov. Learn why
this is important
>
> Thanks for all the feedback. I'm not familiar with the code since I'm not
the developer, but I will pass this all along.
>
>
>
> The notification popup is about the size and shape of a toast -- just big
enough to display the message, and tries not to attract too much attention,
tucked away at lower right -- but it remains on screen until the user
closes it. It's not a modal (I think).
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> Mike Cleary (Contractor) | Scrum Master
>
> Guidehouse, Inc.
>
> mike.cleary@GrantSolutions.gov
>
>
>
> On Assignment With
>
> GrantSolutions
>
> Office of Grants, Office of the Assistant Secretary for Financial
Resources (ASFR)
> U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
>
> Mobile: 703.627.7501
>
>
>
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>
> On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 4:52 AM Steve Green <
steve.green@testpartners.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I agree about it being a clear violation of 2.2.1 if the messages
automatically disappear after a period of time except in the circumstances
you describe or if a page reload occurs.
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>
> Steve
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> From: Mark Magennis <Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>
> Sent: 26 June 2025 09:38
> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: Re: A question about immediate feedback
>
>
>
> Adam Cooper said:  "It should be onscreen for as long as you believe it
is necessary for everybody to consume its content and then disappear."
>
>
>
> Adam, I would have thought that automatically disappearing toast
notifications are a violation of 2.2.1 Timing Adjustable. Unless they
disappear when they are no longer valid or one of the other mechanisms
(turn off, adjust, extend) are implemented.
>
>
>
> Interested to hear your view on this.
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>
>
> Mark